(another) Toko-Ri thread

[Sideslip]

Continuing to explore the tremendous wealth of information here as I seek to further my knowledge on USN flying jackets. I have a Star Sportswear 7823E (and don't I regret not picking up an ELC about 10 years ago when I had a chance or what I think was a 55J14 in Japan about 20 years ago). In any event, I was wondering about the model worn in Toko Ri. From what I understand, the early USN jackets (422, 422A, 6552, 55J14) were longer than the later 7823 alphabet series.

Leaving aside that trousers were high waisted, it seems that the bottom hem of the jacket is down to the middle of the hips. This article (https://bamfstyle.com/2020/01/09/bridges-toko-ri-holden-flight-jacket/) suggests that it is a 422a. Do you agree? The film was made in 1954. I've looked through the other Toko Ri threads here and if I missed this, my apologies. Am asking as am trying to work out whether to search for a 422a or slightly later model.

 

[Maverickson]

Hi,

It has always been my contention and your images further confirm that William Holden (Lt. Harry Brubaker) is wearing a Monarch 7823 (AER) G-1.

Cheers, Dave

 

[B-Man2]

Definitely not a 422a . The collar is a G-1 style with rounded ends rather than the pointer tips of an M-422a. Here’s an example of a 422a, with two G-1 collars below it.

 

[MaydayWei]

and if you're looking for THAT jacket, hit up @Maverickson.
He makes a killer Monarch. Can even do the whole Toko-Ri look.

 

[Sideslip]

Thank you all for the swift determination, I am glad I checked here rather than trusted the internet ... . In the absence of books, trawling the internet and this forum is the source of my education.

@Maverickson Given your expertise, there is no doubt about the model!
@B-Man2 Thanks for the photograph which very clearly illustrates the differences, very helpful.
@MaydayWei The temptation is already firmly established having seen Dave's craftsmanship on VLF, but the budget (with the import duties...) currently imposes some constraints. However, I "fear" that with this interest in jackets, one is not going to be enough, start with one, but then another and another and another until my wife intervenes.

 

[Grant]

Good call Dave. The 7823 Monarch is my favorite contract from that series.

 

[Chandler]

Good call Dave. The 7823 Monarch is my favorite contract from that series.

Can you expound on your opinion? Genuinely interested because, as luck would have it, the one original G-1 I bought for myself, many years ago, is a Monarch.

A cherished jacket that I wear in rotation, though I'm wary of too much wear because the collar is "molting."

FWIW -- the Monarch G-1 on Chapman's CD collection is mine -- leant for documentation purposes.

 

[MaydayWei]

Thank you all for the swift determination, I am glad I checked here rather than trusted the internet ... . In the absence of books, trawling the internet and this forum is the source of my education.

@Maverickson Given your expertise, there is no doubt about the model!
@B-Man2 Thanks for the photograph which very clearly illustrates the differences, very helpful.
@MaydayWei The temptation is already firmly established having seen Dave's craftsmanship on VLF, but the budget (with the import duties...) currently imposes some constraints. However, I "fear" that with this interest in jackets, one is not going to be enough, start with one, but then another and another and another until my wife intervenes.

Don't fall into the hole too deep! It's really in the smallest of differences that you can separate makers, dates, and spec.s apart.
I'm no expert, but for me a Monarch 7823 (AER) is usually given away by tell-tale stitch line dead-center down the middle of the back panel in the rayon lining. But, in situations such as this (where the lining is not shown), I rely on the shape of the pockets and the shape of the collar.
Monarchs usually have a sharper more M422 like collar and the pocket flaps have a slightly 'rounded-off' scalloping (as opposed to the 'sharper' non-rounded scalloping of say a LW Foster 55J14).
Futhermore, Toko-Ri takes places during the Korean war (1950 - 1953). If one is an LT (Navy) at that time, he would've gotten his flight jacket somewhere in 49-51 so, that narrows contracts down too, I suppose. (Monarch 7823 (AER) is 1951, IIRC)
But then again, I'm a rookie, and Dave is the expert.

 

[WBOONE]

Willam Holden got to wear a lot of vintage jackets. A A2 in Picnic, A B3 in stalag 17, and a monarch in this movie

 

[ausreenactor]

Continuing to explore the tremendous wealth of information here as I seek to further my knowledge on USN flying jackets. I have a Star Sportswear 7823E (and don't I regret not picking up an ELC about 10 years ago when I had a chance or what I think was a 55J14 in Japan about 20 years ago). In any event, I was wondering about the model worn in Toko Ri. From what I understand, the early USN jackets (422, 422A, 6552, 55J14) were longer than the later 7823 alphabet series.

Leaving aside that trousers were high waisted, it seems that the bottom hem of the jacket is down to the middle of the hips. This article (https://bamfstyle.com/2020/01/09/bridges-toko-ri-holden-flight-jacket/) suggests that it is a 422a. Do you agree? The film was made in 1954. I've looked through the other Toko Ri threads here and if I missed this, my apologies. Am asking as am trying to work out whether to search for a 422a or slightly later model.

View attachment 67285

View attachment 67287

It was on free to air TV last night here in Australia. AFL Grand Final won me over though.

 

[Chandler]

Willam Holden got to wear a lot of vintage jackets. A A2 in Picnic, A B3 in stalag 17, and a monarch in this movie

He wears an A-2 in a fast scene in Stalag 17, too -- I think it's when he's loading up "gifts" just before going to visit the Russian women.

It never makes another appearance after that, but his A-10 gloves are cool!

William Holden *** Local Caption *** 1953, Stalag 17, Stalag 17 Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: William Holden *** Local Caption *** 1953, Stalag 17, Stalag 17 - GEJ9HR from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.

www.alamy.com

 

[Sideslip]

Don't fall into the hole too deep! It's really in the smallest of differences that you can separate makers, dates, and spec.s apart.

This is a very good point as it is easy to end up obsessing on details which will only be apparent to connoisseur's or just oneself (unless total expertise is the goal). Nevertheless, it is good to know these details to help inform an ultimate decision and know the origin and history. At this stage, I am trying to narrow down whether to go for a good repro or look for a vintage original (I saw that there is a Goodman Monarch but the import duties... add up). If the latter, I want to be able to wear it without worrying about it, especially flying as I am sometimes in a Tiger Moth biplane (I take care of things, but I don't want to be scared of taking it out and using it).

Need to re-watch Toko Ri. If nothing else, the actual carrier ops scenes are really great. Oh, and Grace Kelly is in it (I had a crush on her....)

 

[Chandler]

He wears an A-2 in a fast scene in Stalag 17, too --

Forgot about the early "I Wanted Wings," great old movie with a lot of jackets and equipment.

And, "The Devil's Brigade," of course. If you watch carefully, Holden jumps between an issue and private manufacture A-2 in that one.

I wonder if he ever took one of his jackets home for personal use?

 

[MaydayWei]

At this stage, I am trying to narrow down whether to go for a good repro or look for a vintage original
If the latter, I want to be able to wear it without worrying about it...

If you want to wear it without worrying about it, a good repro is what you want.
Something I've recently learnt. So, please learn from my experiences. It's a lot cheaper!
I can't help myself, I'm far more cautious wearing my originals then my repros.
Ultimately, I find myself living life a lot more when wearing repro. End of that day, that's what counts.

 

[lgr1613]

I have a copy of James A. Michener's book and am looking for something to read, having just finished Top Gun by Dan Pedersen. Which, by the way is an excellent book on naval aviation by the founder of the Top Gun program. Highly recommended read...

Even though my flight experience was with the USAF, the ending of The Bridges at Toko-ri movie has special meaning for me. There, but for the grace of God, go I.

 

[B-Man2]

Forgot about the early "I Wanted Wings," great old movie with a lot of jackets and equipment.

And, "The Devil's Brigade," of course. If you watch carefully, Holden jumps between an issue and private manufacture A-2 in that one.

I wonder if he ever took one of his jackets home for personal use?

Here’s a publicity photo of Holden taken while he’s wearing his A2 .

 

[Chandler]

Here’s a publicity photo of Holden taken while he’s wearing his A2 .View attachment 67376

He looks a lot younger than in Stalag 17, maybe from I Wanted Wings?

Then again, that's not a uniform shirt, and Picnic was '55 (S17, '53) -- curious.

 

[ShanghaiJack]

Don't forget about Holden in Satan Never Sleeps.