What can you tell me about this...?

[kiltie]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-WWII-U...088?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5653dda8f0

I've never seen this kind of thing before. The cap has a WWII look to it, but with a black visor and chinstrap like post war. It has a Chinese insignia, but the buttons for the chinstrap have the US Army seal. So it looks anachronistic, yet authentic; Chinese, but American. What's the dilly-o, yo?

Clearly somebody thinks it's legit, as there's a $650 bit on it already ( even though I suppose it could be the seller generating interest...)

 

[Chandler]

The US supplied uniforms to the Chinese -- in fact, the AVG would wear caps like these with the Chinese insignia because they were in the Chinese AF.

The visor is probably brown, just looks dark in the picture.

 

[unclegrumpy]

It is all humped up. The Chinese insignia is a recent fake, and the hat is maybe a 1950's EM or maybe something else....like a bus driver. The material is an odd color and texture for a military hat.

 

[kiltie]

The US supplied uniforms to the Chinese -- in fact, the AVG would wear caps like these with the Chinese insignia because they were in the Chinese AF.

The visor is probably brown, just looks dark in the picture.

I'm hip to the uniform supply thing, and I considered the darkened visor being the product of a bad picture, but the United States buttons holding the chinstrap...? Moreover, all of the pictures I've seen have a more structured saucer, even if one were to remove the grommet, and I've never seen an OD one in pictures ( to make the concession that this one is - in fact - OD, and not a more modern bottle green, due to a bad photographic representation ). Of course that just means I haven't seen one.

It is all humped up. The Chinese insignia is a recent fake, and the hat is maybe a 1950's EM or maybe something else....like a bus driver. The material is an odd color and texture for a military hat.

Are you pretty sure about the badge? I've never seen a good picture of a real one. What's the tip off? I ask not out of doubt, but rather so that I'll be able to see what makes a fake or reproduction. The '50s EM was the first thing that came to my mind, as well, but I wasn't sure what sort of things were made locally ( in China ).

It sure looks neat, in any event, but I wouldn't want to try to do one up if it wasn't real. It is odd that there's no provenance with such a pristine artifact, or even a decent story, a la "given to a French farmer in thanks after he hid a squad from the 101st in his barn..."

- I love that story...

 

[kiltie]

Okay, still looking, but here's this stuff, from here:

http://www.soldat.com/flying_tigers_AVG.htm

I guess those are probably just mock-ups using period caps, but here's a nice clear picture showing an OD saucer, brown chinstrap, and black visor -

EDIT -

Looking closer, I can see the buttons on the chinstrap of the second cap are NOT US Army. Maybe that one is the real deal. Unclegrumpy - I do see a major difference in that the blue surrounding the sun is lighter and the thread just doesn't seem...BEEFY enough. But the authentic Chinese insignia seem to be all over the place.
Still looking around...

 

[Steve H]

In the words of the great Rory Breaker... "If the milk turns sour, i aint the pussy to drink it" !!!

 

[kiltie]

 

[Steve H]

There he is!!!

 

[unclegrumpy]

Okay, still looking, but here's this stuff, from here:

http://www.soldat.com/flying_tigers_AVG.htm

All fake....every bit of it.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Unclegrumpy - I do see a major difference in that the blue surrounding the sun is lighter and the thread just doesn't seem...BEEFY enough. But the authentic Chinese insignia seem to be all over the place.
Still looking around...

I am sorry to say it, but you are analyzing the differences between fakes. Real WW II Chinese insignia is not
"all over the place". These fakes were made in Pakistan or India, not China during WW II.

 

[kiltie]

Unclegrumpy - I do see a major difference in that the blue surrounding the sun is lighter and the thread just doesn't seem...BEEFY enough. But the authentic Chinese insignia seem to be all over the place.
Still looking around...

I am sorry to say it, but you are analyzing the differences between fakes. Real WW II Chinese insignia is not
"all over the place". These fakes were made in Pakistan or India, not China during WW II.

I'm certainly not sorry to hear it.
But let me see if I can make an analogy.
In my job, houses make tee-shirts or ball caps or whatever, representative of their companies. For instance - and unfortunately I don't have a picture handy - my company is in what's known as the Medical Center. So our tee-shirts have a caduceus with a 32, but a Halligan tool in place of the staff, and a hose coiled 'round rather than a snake. It's the company's design and made by whomever we got the low bid from.
Now -
It's not a city of San Antonio Fire Department shirt, but it's a shirt worn by San Antonio firemen.
That's what get's me all turned around about "theater made" kit... what makes a thing more or less desirable*. I'm more than satisfied, even with my untrained eye, that the cap in the OP is not authentic. At this point I'm curious about two things: 1) did a thing like it ever exist, and 2) what are the tell-tale signs of the fake insignia, in the event I wanted to either do up my own reproduction or perhaps buy something that is authentic.
Going back to my analogy; how disparate would any two given pieces of "theater made' gear be? Was the Chinese gear especially uniform in the first place ( I know they were certainly hurting for rifles )... and on and on...
It's a thing I love and hate about an internet forum: there's always a place to start, but I wish I could sit down for a beer with each and every one of you so that nothing got lost in the ether(net).
In any event, thanks for coming along this far.

EDIT: *or authentic, beyond the obvious timeframe

 

[unclegrumpy]

I am not exactly sure how to address your comments. While I understand what you are saying, historically speaking, something is either an original from the period or it isn't. Things get blurred with military collectables because they were often modified and updated during their original use, but that being true does not make reproductions "real".

As far as the insignia, the AVG, and later Americans in the AAF attached to the Chinese AF or other affiliated organizations like the CNAC often wore Chinese made insignia.

The quality, style of embroidery, the materials used, and other features usually make the wartime Chinese insignia stand out. While there can be some variation because it is both handmade and locally produced, it is most often found where the workmanship and quality is stellar.

As far as you learning more about how to see the differences, I would say you need to look at and handle some original pieces. Maguire's Pinks and Greens books are also an excellent source of information, and probably the first place to start if you wanted to start building a library on AAF uniforms and insignia.

 

[kiltie]

I am not exactly sure how to address your comments. While I understand what you are saying, historically speaking, something is either an original from the period or it isn't. Things get blurred with military collectables because they were often modified and updated during their original use, but that being true does not make reproductions "real".

Heh heh... and this is where discussing things in computer-land gets hard. I get that reproductions aren't real, but meant more like ( hypothetically ): If a particular pair of engineer boots was favored by pilots in the 12th Air Force, that doesn't mean that they're USAAF flying boots, but it was definitely an item worn by pilots. That's what I was trying to convey...
So even if nothing about a cap like this is issued, it wouldn't mean nothing like it could exist.
I totally get that this is not real gear, and 99.9% not even period...

I'm obviously not explaining myself the way I intended. Thankfully you can't see the accompanying gesticulations.
At any rate, thanks for the heads up on the book. I see it around every now and again. Does it matter the edition?

 

[unclegrumpy]

Venturing into what non regulation gear guys could have worn is another topic....and a fairly expansive one.

As far as Maguire's books, there are several of them, and each contains different bits in them, though they build on one another rather than being complete volumes on a particular topic.

 

[Chandler]

Real WW II Chinese insignia is not "all over the place".

Really? There was no variation whatsoever? And I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically -- I've never seen a real or fake one in person.

I have the Flying Tigers book by Pistole that came out some years back, it has a lot of original uniform images. I'll have to look it up.

I can say that I have a CBI patch from an uncle who was over there -- looks very much like those in the auction.