Vintage Jacket Myths

[Atticus]

Over the years that I've been collecting and wearing vintage jackets, I've run across a few myths that seem to never die. Can y'all add any to my list?

1. The Blue, Issued MA-1. Not sure exactly where this came from, but I'm guessing that someone once saw a B-15C Mod and assumed it was a blue MA-1. Now everybody who reproduces sage MA-1s also makes one in blue. And lotsa old wing-wipes swear that they knew a guy, who knew a guy, who was in some unit that wore only blue MA-1s...back in the day.

2. The G-2. If the WWII USN leather jacket with a mouton collar is a G-1, then the same jacket, but with a leather collar, must be a G-2, right? Well yes. And we also know that the G-2 was issued at the very end of WWII and really didn't see much service. Never mind that there was no G-1 leather jacket in WWII.

3. The Green-Knited L-2A Contract. There's a photo of Buzz wearin' one, and Rickson reproduced it, so there musta been a whole contract of 'em, right? Flash to somewhere in Korea in 1952:

Aldrin: "Sarge, the cuffs on this jacket suck. They're ripped to shit. Can 'ya replace 'em?"

Sarge: "Sorry, LT. We can't get blue cuffs anymore. Supply's phasing out the blue stuff. I've only got sage...like goes on the new B-15Ds."

Aldrin: "Well Ok. But go ahead and replace all the knits with sage. The jacket'd look kinda dorky with sage cuffs a blue collar, don't 'ya think?"

4. The G-1's Interior Pistol Pocket. Try carrying your 37 lb. 1911 in there for a day and see if you still think its a pistol pocket.

5. The MA-1's Cigarette Pocket. Yes, Mildred, almost everyone in the Air Force smoked back in the day. And the Air Force designed a jacket feature to encourage even more smoking around O2, jet fuel and large stocks of ordnance. And though this fact isn't known to many, there was actually a Vietnam-era, C-series MA-1 that came with a roach clip attached to the front.

6. The Reason For The M-422/G-1 Biswing Back...was because it was thought that every Naval Aviator would have to swim in his jacket at least once during his career. An appealing myth, actually.

AF

 

[watchmanjimg]

How about the "G-8" or "Type 440" that is misrepresented here:

http://www.flightjacket.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=8

And the myth exposed here, by none other than the controversial Stu Clurman:

http://lostworldsinc.com/Raiders_Leathe ... Jacket.htm

By the way, I've owned the LW jacket and aside from the side-entry pockets I thought it was fantastic. I kinda miss it . . .

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Not sure if it fits controversy or myth.

Olive drab A-1s- Don't know and don't really bother figuring it out but I remember lots of debate over it. :lol:

 

[Chris217]

Or how about the one that once a pilot reached ace status, he had the inside of his A-2 replaced with a red silk lining.

 

[deeb7]

Over the years that I've been collecting and wearing vintage jackets, I run across a few myths that seem to never die.

Dunno if they're all myths, Geoff. The G-2 seems to be an AN-J-3, with a different name, and I have to defend the L-2A with green knits.

Bgbdesign was so convincing on the old forum, with photos of removed cuffs ... bright green (not olive, or sage), and still dark blue behind the seams where they hadn't seen daylight.

And it's the Superior Togs contract with the reputation, not the Pritzker, or Foster ... similar situation with the N-3A.

 

[Andrew]

Spare goggle strap on the back of the Irvin collar :lol: :lol:

"Snap"
Red Two, "What was that Red Leader?"
Red Leader, "Just lost my goggle strap Red Two, i'm going to have to ditch her"
RT, "Use your spare Red Leader"
RL, "Sorry Chum, can't do, i'm wearing my '44 Multipanel Wareings, single trunion Dot zip...."
Silence....
RT (with sober acceptance), "Good luck Boss, it was a pleasure serving under you..."

 

[442RCT]

4. The G-1's Interior Pistol Pocket. Try carrying your 37 lb. 1911 in there for a day and see if you still think its a pistol pocket.

I don't agree that this is a myth. The wearer can easily pack a S&W J frame or a Walther PPK sized pistol without any problems. One of my LE friends carries a pair of handcuffs in the flap pocket on the opposite side to balance the jacket. (btw-I seriously doubt if a 1911 weighs 37 lb., maybe 37 oz.)

I don't know what the inside pocket was designated for, I've heard it called a map pocket, or a E6B flight calculator pocket.

 

[bseal]

Regarding Myth No. 3:

I was down at a vintage show in L.A. the other week with a pal and we found this very real and very original beauty...

 

[rich]

I know that guy from somewhere ......... if only I could think where..............

 

[watchmanjimg]

4. The G-1's Interior Pistol Pocket. Try carrying your 37 lb. 1911 in there for a day and see if you still think its a pistol pocket.

I don't agree that this is a myth. The wearer can easily pack a S&W J frame or a Walther PPK sized pistol without any problems. One of my LE friends carries a pair of handcuffs in the flap pocket on the opposite side to balance the jacket. (btw-I seriously doubt if a 1911 weighs 37 lb., maybe 37 oz.)

I don't know what the inside pocket was designated for, I've heard it called a map pocket, or a E6B flight calculator pocket.

Certainly one could carry a small handgun in the pocket, but I believe Geoff was referring to the notion that the pocket was originally intended for this purpose. I'd say it was more likely for a map or flight calculator, as you stated.

In any case the smaller handguns you mentioned would not have been issued to US personnel, so I can't imagine they were considered a factor in designing the jacket.

 

[dadgad]

5. The MA-1's Cigarette Pocket. Yes, almost everyone in the Air Force smoked back in the day. And the Air Force designed a jacket feature to encourage more smoking around jet fuel and large stocks of ordnance. And though this fact isn't known to many, there was actually a Vietnam-era, C-series MA-1 that came with a roach clip attached to the front.

AF

probably the only real thing according to the MILITARY SPECIFICATION sheets.
Go straight to page 9.

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-J)/download.php?spec=MIL-J-8279G.009439.PDF

 

[442RCT]

Certainly one could carry a small handgun in the pocket, but I believe Geoff was referring to the notion that the pocket was originally intended for this purpose. I'd say it was more likely for a map or flight calculator, as you stated.

In any case the smaller handguns you mentioned would not have been issued to US personnel, so I can't imagine they were considered a factor in designing the jacket.

I agree that the G-1 inside pocket was not designed for a handgun, but it does a great job of being a pistol pocket holster for a right hander. As for the US military not issuing a small handgun, they had both small revolvers and semi-auto pocket pistols in the inventory. Since we're talking about aircrew, both Colt and Smith & Wesson produced the M13 Aircrewman revolvers. Both have aluminum frames and cylinders. Both have two inch barrels and both are chambered for the .38 Special M41 cartridge.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Certainly one could carry a small handgun in the pocket, but I believe Geoff was referring to the notion that the pocket was originally intended for this purpose. I'd say it was more likely for a map or flight calculator, as you stated.

In any case the smaller handguns you mentioned would not have been issued to US personnel, so I can't imagine they were considered a factor in designing the jacket.

I agree that the G-1 inside pocket was not designed for a handgun, but it does a great job of being a pistol pocket holster for a right hander. As for the US military not issuing a small handgun, they had both small revolvers and semi-auto pocket pistols in the inventory. Since we're talking about aircrew, both Colt and Smith & Wesson produced the M13 Aircrewman revolvers. Both have aluminum frames and cylinders. Both have two inch barrels and both are chambered for the .38 Special M41 cartridge.

No argument here regarding the suitability of the pocket for civilian concealed carry, preferably for smaller guns as you mentioned earlier. I ordered my Langlitz with an inner gun pocket just like that of a G-1, albeit lined in leather to help support the extra weight.

Getting back to military applications, the M13 Aircrewman was produced for the USAF and would not have been found in the pocket of a G-1. By the time the Aircrewman came out the Navy was issuing S&W Victory Models with 4-inch barrels. The SV-2 survival vest has an internal holster specifically designed for a 4-inch revolver, and versions produced after the M9 was standardized have a holster for the auto. In addition Uncle Sam purchased all manner of holsters for issued handguns, so it's not as if there was ever any cause for confusion as to the method of carry.

 

[Swing]

5. The MA-1's Cigarette Pocket. Yes, almost everyone in the Air Force smoked back in the day. And the Air Force designed a jacket feature to encourage more smoking around jet fuel and large stocks of ordnance. And though this fact isn't known to many, there was actually a Vietnam-era, C-series MA-1 that came with a roach clip attached to the front.

AF

probably the only real thing according to the MILITARY SPECIFICATION sheets.
Go straight to page 9.

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-J)/download.php?spec=MIL-J-8279G.009439.PDF

Yep, was gonna chime in when I saw the original post yesterday that #5 isn't a myth.

~Swing

 

[Swing]

Regarding Myth No. 3:

I was down at a vintage show in L.A. the other week with a pal and we found this very real and very original beauty...

Was this at Inspiration? If Inspiration turns out to be an annual event, I hope to make it there next year.

~Swing

 

[Atticus]

5. The MA-1's Cigarette Pocket. Yes, almost everyone in the Air Force smoked back in the day. And the Air Force designed a jacket feature to encourage more smoking around jet fuel and large stocks of ordnance. And though this fact isn't known to many, there was actually a Vietnam-era, C-series MA-1 that came with a roach clip attached to the front.

AF

probably the only real thing according to the MILITARY SPECIFICATION sheets.
Go straight to page 9.

http://www.everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL+SPECS+(MIL-J)/download.php?spec=MIL-J-8279G.009439.PDF

Amazing! Times have sure changed. Not to sound like a whining North Carolina tobacco farmer, but in today's environment it’s hard to imagine the government doing anything that would even remotely appear to promote the use of tobacco.

By the way, are cigarettes included in MREs? I know they were in sixties-era C-Rats.

AF

 

[Atticus]

Bgbdesign was so convincing on the old forum, with photos of removed cuffs ... bright green (not olive, or sage), and still dark blue behind the seams where they hadn't seen daylight.

And it's the Superior Togs contract with the reputation, not the Pritzker, or Foster ... similar situation with the N-3A.

So Brooks' theory is that the knits started out blue, but faded to green? Seems plausable, I guess...but it must have been a very quick fade. Could this jacket have been more than two or three years old when this photo was taken?

AF

 

[chancerider]

The interior pocket of the G-1, (and it's predecessors) were certainly not purpose-built for carrying a sidearm. A sidearm would be carried holstered. The E6B time/distance calculator is what I've always been told the pocket was originally designed for, and this sounds much more plausible then a sidearm.

To add one on; One thing I've always been told - and read - is that despite the fact that almost all A-2 repros are HH or goat, the majority of A-2's manufactured during the issue life of the garment were cowhide.

 

[Swing]

Bgbdesign was so convincing on the old forum, with photos of removed cuffs ... bright green (not olive, or sage), and still dark blue behind the seams where they hadn't seen daylight.

And it's the Superior Togs contract with the reputation, not the Pritzker, or Foster ... similar situation with the N-3A.

So Brooks' theory is that the knits started out blue, but faded to green? Seems plausable, I guess...but it must have been a very quick fade. Could this jacket have been more than two or three years old when this photo was taken?

AF

There's a couple different possibilities with the green knit L2As...

Left over knit from prior L2 contracts being used to produce new L2As.

Left over L2 knit that was dyed (poorly) blue used to produced new L2As, and it faded back to green.

Knit that was just poorly dyed period, and faded to the various green, yellow, OD shades we see in old photos and today.

Or, the knit needed replaced and green was used since blue wasn't available. But in the photo above, all the knit on that jacket is green, and that photo is from 1954 or 1955. That jacket can't be more than three or four years old and I find it hard to believe that in that short period of time all of its knit parts needing replaced.

~Swing

 

[Jaydee]

The interior pocket of the G-1, (and it's predecessors) were certainly not purpose-built for carrying a sidearm. A sidearm would be carried holstered. The E6B time/distance calculator is what I've always been told the pocket was originally designed for, and this sounds much more plausible then a sidearm.

To add one on; One thing I've always been told - and read - is that despite the fact that almost all A-2 repros are HH or goat, the majority of A-2's manufactured during the issue life of the garment were cowhide.

Yes the E-6B Fits perfectly into the G-1 pocket and some pilots probably carried it there, but I have heard the pocket refered to as a Map Pocket. This sounds right to me, maybe it was designed to carry both.

A-2 and HH. I have heard that all the cowhide supplies were being used for gear, belts, straps, boots, Etc. Thus the HH and GS jackets.