Those crazy jacket people again

[usafwso]

Last evening it became necessary to drop into the local supermarket and pick a thing or two for dinner. Wearing my mid 90's era issued A-2 from active duty days without patches. Was selecting the perfect avocado when behind me a very uptight looking active duty Air Force Colonel was giving me a rather nasty look. [On Monday's the USAF does "blues Monday" where everyone wears their blue uniforms and presume that the O-6 would have rather worn his flight suit or something.] He starts to give a lecture regarding wearing active duty personnel wearing "uniform" items in civilian clothing when just about the time I mentioned that I was retired and that while his "personal problems and issues" regarding my wearing a 15 year old flight jacket is not his concern and to focus his mind on other issues beside my jacket. About that time his face turned beet red.

Over the next few minutes we passed a few times up and down the aisles of the market and there he was with his increasingly growing nasty expressions. Good manners on my side prevented me from saying a few trite things that I would have liked to said.

Needless to say, living 20 miles from a major Air Force base stinks when it comes to wearing a nice flight jacket around town, especially with the very short and warm winters we have around here.

Anyone else experience negative reactions when sporting a flight jacket? :roll:

 

[Weasel_Loader]

Never. When I used to wear a CWU-36 or 45 to work, I would get questions about the patches I had on them by other pilots/aircrew but nothing negative. Of course my vintage jackets get a lot of positive comments.

 

[CBI]

this issue has come up MANY times on numerous forums, threads, websites. The experiences and responses vary greatly from "never any problems" to "yes, bad experiences". Jacket collectors run the gamit of being very careful what/when to wear a jacket to others not giving a damn and wearing whatever they like.

I have seen a few bad incidents with others wearing jackets and have had a few "close calls". I think the fact is that anytime anyone wears anything outside the norm, a risk is run of offending someone. In this case, I guess it can't be helped. On the otherhand, if someone wears something that someone else (or ever the person wearing it) has had to "earn" in some way, the wearer is running a risk.

Sorry to hear your bad luck!

 

[greyhound52]

I have never had any issues except being asked if I am a pilot and I just say no but spent over 31 years in the Army serving my country. At that point the issue is closed.

 

[Atticus]

I live in an area with a high concentration of active duty and retired military. Many of them are USMC flight crew or former flight crew. I've never had any bad comments about my wearing issued flight jackets...and many of my nylon and nomex jackets are patched.

That being said, I doubt that anyone would ever mistaken me for active duty military wearing items of uniform with civilian clothing. I think a mere glance at me would confirm, even to that grocery store O-6, that the military has no more authority over me than does the King of Persia.

AF

 

[USMC_GAU-21]

Well,

This is a slippery slope. But in this case you were wearing "your A-2" that you earned as an active duty Air Force Officer. As a retiree or no longer on active duty, you can wear till the cows come home. When I first retired, I would wear my G-1 around and I got some strange looks, but rarely anyone said anything to me, mostly it was hey what unit were you with, blah blah...friendly veteran stuff.

Other folks wearing jackets that are not "theirs from issue" can yes run into a problem with the wrong person being offended by them wearing that jacket. But hey, then "that" jacket" shouldn't have been for sale. Some folks don't understand the collect-ability or the preservation of this hobby.

I used to have an issue (emphasis on "used to") with reenactors wearing any services dress uniforms, with full medals and ribbons, with or with out valor awards. I see a bunch of folks around at veterans day parades and the like not just in combat uniform impressions, but other uniforms as well, sporting a whole rack of period awards. As long as they are not violating "Stolen Valor Act" let them show the living history of our past.

So some guys might get fired up at you wearing a really nice A-2 all patched up, and some might take the opportunity to ask you questions about the jacket, its history, the veteran who wore it, etc. And, maybe learn something.

The COL could have been having a bad day like you said....or he simply does not understand Air Force regulations for retired/off active duty personnel. Either way you kept your cool and did not have to embarrass him or your self with a un-needed confrontation.

Just my 1 cent.

r - Gy Dan

 

[zoomer]

Perhaps a tasteful but prominent patch would clear up matters?

 

[dilbert]

There are in life, unfortunately, a number of these uptight, anal-retentive types and the military seems to have more than its share of them. I remember exiting the wardroom at a Naval Air Station with some friends after lunch and one of my friends had not buttoned his uniform blouse as we walked across the room. Out of the corner of the room came a captain at full speed who yelled after us, stopped us in the middle of the room and proceeded to loudly dress down this poor guy, a lieutenant, because he hadn't fastened all his buttons. I flew a cross country with a commander who blamed me in front of the aircrew for something he had done on the flight- the entire crew knew what was going on, but as a nugget j.g. in the squadron there was nothing I could do but stand there and take it. I wasn't about to jeopardize those hard-won wings and I knew that was what he was after, he had that reputation in the squadron (the j.o.'s in the squadron nicknamed him "Captain Crunch" as he liked to crunch junior officers).

I think you did exactly the right thing- answered in no uncertain terms that it was none of his business but didn't go overboard. Good job in my opinion!

I must say that to this day that the only person in this world that I would cross the street in traffic and cold cock is Captain Crunch, not just for me but all the j.o.'s be abused.

 

[zoomer]

There are in life, unfortunately, a number of these uptight, anal-retentive types and the military seems to have more than its share of them.

That is because that type of personality is valued for many reasons. Sheer gut-level discipline often requires a SOB personality to get past that civilian habit of questioning.

 

[watchmanjimg]

I never tire of this subject even though it's been discussed here many times. I'm especially pleased that the military retirees among us seem to have no problem at all with people wearing military jackets with civilian clothing and do so themselves on a regular basis. Although I personally would not feel comfortable wearing rank or skill badges that I didn't earn except perhaps in reenacting/living history events or for photos, I think it's fine if done out of respect for veterans. Who has the right to tell someone like our own Maverickson that he can't wear a G-1 badged as worn by his beloved father, for instance? On the other hand, lately I've noticed a fashion trend where civilian shirts are festooned with quasi-military rank. I saw a hulking dimbulb sitting in a restaurant a couple weeks back sporting a variation of USAF Chief Master Sergeant stripes on his sleeves and what looked like typical airline-pilot epaulets. I wonder how USAFWSO's colonel would have reacted to this, and imagine the response! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

I've never had anything but positive comments on the rare occasions that anyone bothered to notice what jacket I was wearing, but if there was ever a problem I'd point out that above all else I earned the money to buy the jacket--end of story.

 

[USMC_GAU-21]

Absolutely well said! I agree 100%.

The more the jackets and uniforms are out there the more chance for a child to learn about our history and they way we collectors preserve it. we are in this hobby to not only wear really cool jackets but to preserve, honor, and in some instances protect the history of a veteran.

for you guys in Europe that collect and wear the jackets....good on ya! We all need to remember the sacrifices that these men and women dealt with while wearing these garments. to them they were just articles of clothing required to be worn with the function of their duties......and not to mention the mystic that came with them!

Lets see, over paid, over sexed, and over here.......

Well....I for one wear my jacket when the Maryland weather allows. I hope Maverickson wears his jacket proudly for his father will be looking down with prideful tears in his eyes. He earned that jacket. And no place in the world would it be better worn then by his son.

I am extremely proud of Maverickson and his quest to find this jacket. I remember the first time I took a surviving family member to a WWII wreck site, and they were able to connect with their relatives, by picking up a small piece of wreckage or leaving a small hand written note by a daughter that said I love you....and miss you.

This is why preservation is so important. We shall NEVER forget those who came before us. And those who stand a post today, and those who will stand a post tomorrow.

'Nuf said......

r/Gy Dan

 

[usafwso]

Well like others here, under no circumstances would I wear on my A-2 my aircrew nametag or MAJCOM patch in public. Doing so would exhibit sheer stupidity and lack of good taste. Of course, I do keep the patches in the pocket - just to keep track of them.

Earlier this afternoon, was in the same patchless A-2 with its obvious blank velcro patches picking up something from In 'N Out Burger where three F-16 pilots were in line and they commented quite positively and inquired about the "classic" car that I was driving. Interestingly, we started chatting up about some people that we knew in common. Thankfully, no jacket comments from these guys but must say that one wanted to see the engine on the old 1989 end of model year car.

Best thing for me to do is avoid that part of town during the few cool days that we have.

 

[watchmanjimg]

Best thing for me to do is avoid that part of town during the few cool days that we have.

No way! You're a USAFA man who retired after a full career (as an aviator at that). If some jerk has a problem with your jacket you can tell them where to get off. In any case you should look on the bright side--someone actually noticed that old heap you were driving. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[dilbert]

"That is because that type of personality is valued for many reasons. Sheer gut-level discipline often requires a SOB personality to get past that civilian habit of questioning."

Zoomer, I totally agree that aggressive, strong leadership is of great value. What I object to is the few pencil necks who are poor leaders and make up for their shortcomings by bluster. We referred to the blustery type when I was a student pilot in the Training Command as "screamers". I flew with a few and didn't learn a thing from them. I didn't mind getting my butt kicked when I deserved it from a firm but fair instructor and came away from the experience with the greatest respect for him and a better pilot for it. Later, when I came back to the Training Command as an instructor , I had to roast a few behinds myself, but I always tried to do it in a fair manner and certainly not in front of a group of their piers.

 

[usafwso]

Oh boy, can I tell a few stories of "SCREAMERS" in the cockpit when I was a student. One one trip he even slapped me on the helmet for a small mistake and was in the habit of slapping other as well. Then years later had to work with him. A nice guy but just a bit of a hair trigger personality and would fly off the handle over the most minor issues in our squadron.

Was driving around town this afternoon after pulling the top off of the '89 560SL and wore the old G-1 today. No comments from anyone but had to avoid one of our local cops flying through a red light unannounced. :evil:

 

[asiamiles]

Everyone should wear whatever they like as long they feel comfortable doing so. If it upsets someone else, it's their problem, not the wearer's. I'm off to see a band tomorrow who dress like Brownshirts onstage. Only in Japan! :lol: Gotta say, I felt a little uneasy about it when I saw them a few days ago; they even used 30's/40's German music for their intro. But they played pretty good garage-punk and I spoke to the singer/guitarist after and he was a nice enough guy. I guess they just want to make an impact, but not sure if they're going about it in quite the right way...maybe I should have a word!

 

[Peter Graham]

I'm off to see a band tomorrow who dress like Brownshirts onstage. Only in Japan! :lol: Gotta say, I felt a little uneasy about it when I saw them a few days ago; they even used 30's/40's German music for their intro. But they played pretty good garage-punk and I spoke to the singer/guitarist after and he was a nice enough guy. I guess they just want to make an impact, but not sure if they're going about it in quite the right way...maybe I should have a word!

Miles, that's pretty dodgy territory they are straying into. In the 70's Sid and Siouxsie flirted with Nazi imiginery and got very justified flak for it but they were just stupid. Nowdays with the rise of the far right that band will get an audience that maybe they don't want, or maybe they are Nazis in which case I would think seriously about going to another gig.

 

[Atticus]

Miles, that's pretty dodgy territory they are straying into. In the 70's Sid and Siouxsie flirted with Nazi imiginery and got very justified flak for it but they were just stupid. Nowdays with the rise of the far right that band will get an audience that maybe they don't want, or maybe they are Nazis in which case I would think seriously about going to another gig.

The problem with free speech is that .01% of it pisses off 99.9% of the population...but that .01% is the part that lets us know if a government really does allow freedom of expression. Here in the USA, nazi brown shirts and skinheads routinely march in our city streets. It pisses off the NAACP, Zionists, the VFW and everyone else, but if nazis and shinheads can't march...then the 1st Amendment doen't really mean what it says.

But Peter raises a good point. Legislation like our 1st Amendment protects unpopular speech from government suppression. It doesn't protect brown shirt musicians from getting their faces stomped in dark alleys by good 'ol boys.

AF

 

[FlyingToastman]

Last evening it became necessary to drop into the local supermarket and pick a thing or two for dinner. Wearing my mid 90's era issued A-2 from active duty days without patches. Was selecting the perfect avocado when behind me a very uptight looking active duty Air Force Colonel was giving me a rather nasty look. [On Monday's the USAF does "blues Monday" where everyone wears their blue uniforms and presume that the O-6 would have rather worn his flight suit or something.] He starts to give a lecture regarding wearing active duty personnel wearing "uniform" items in civilian clothing when just about the time I mentioned that I was retired and that while his "personal problems and issues" regarding my wearing a 15 year old flight jacket is not his concern and to focus his mind on other issues beside my jacket. About that time his face turned beet red.

Over the next few minutes we passed a few times up and down the aisles of the market and there he was with his increasingly growing nasty expressions. Good manners on my side prevented me from saying a few trite things that I would have liked to said.

Needless to say, living 20 miles from a major Air Force base stinks when it comes to wearing a nice flight jacket around town, especially with the very short and warm winters we have around here.

Anyone else experience negative reactions when sporting a flight jacket? :roll:

Ok...I work on WPAFB as a civilan. I have worn my A-2s and nomex jacket no problems. I used to have one patched up for the 15th AF that I now regret selling and my Wright Field A-2. I also have an Avirex issue A-2 with the velcro still on it. I wear it frequently since its comfortable. I don't wear any patches on the Avirex A-2 or my nomex jacket that I have flight time and used in ROTC except a flag patch.

No one has ever stopped me and commented on it. Lots of retirees show up at work wearing their issued A-2s with patches on them. Even the active duty/reservists have worn their nameplates with rank in civvies (which is a no-no.) My customers also know Im a civilan and they more often than not think its cool i'm bringing the Wright Field patch back.

Your Colonel might be 'testing' to be a one star but I've never had that problem. If it was such a big deal those fleece black and sage green that all the branches wear with their gortex parkas...no one would be wearing them outside of official duty. Also with reference to those parkas they're a hot commodity..I still want one! Now I have mentioned to an Army Spc. about wearing his rank on his parka that he might get gigged...but what does the cashier at the BX know?

Anyways, no problems here. Unless I sat there and made myself out to be a member of the Uniformed Services as I'm not, most of my customers could careless. They think at least the Wright Field part of the equasion is cool.

Christos

 

[asiamiles]

Miles, that's pretty dodgy territory they are straying into. In the 70's Sid and Siouxsie flirted with Nazi imiginery and got very justified flak for it but they were just stupid. Nowdays with the rise of the far right that band will get an audience that maybe they don't want, or maybe they are Nazis in which case I would think seriously about going to another gig.

Of course, I can well recall the vitriol directed to punks flirting with Fascism (the swastika armbands and "destroy" t-shirts), and later similar accusations being aimed at various Factory bands (with names such as Joy Division and their records decorated by Peter Saville art that occasionally drew from Italian Futurism). It was all nonsense, of course. The punks were basically using the imagery to shock and I guess with the end of the war only 30 before, it still did. As you say, the were probably stupid, but they were young, and it helped create a splash. But there was a relatively strong NF and BNP presence around at time, and there was certainly a danger of suggesting associations with, or even support for, such organizations...one punk band, Skrewdriver, were as much a bunch of fascists using punk as the other way around.

Now the end of WWII is 65 years gone. We're not that far off the day when no one who experienced it will be around. Is that when an event becomes "history"? I'm not sure. In most places though the imagery is still too potent to mess with, partly/largely because, as Peter says, it still has meaning. In Japan, it's just a costume. It has no meaning. No more than a band wearing British police helmets, dressing like the Flintstones or wearing 60's British biker gear with the 59 Club patches et al (or for that matter someone collecting all those Dragon German WWII action figures). Whether playing with such imagery (and seig heiling - the singer actually bid us farewell with a salute...which naturally we didn't return) is a good idea is another matter; maybe if you really want to do it you need to be a bit cleverer, and make a clearer distance from the original source...a more obvious sense of irony or mocking is perhaps required. But there's no way the costume reflects any ideology nor in Japan would it attract people of that political bent. Funnily enough, perhaps getting into the spirit of things, I noticed members of two of the other bands wearing iron crosses with swastikas on them, something you couldn't do in England, whereas you wouldn't get a second glance for doing so in Japan.

BTW the intro music I mentioned before I this time recognized as being from one of the great war films, Sam Peckinpah's CROSS OF IRON.

My friend recorded some of the band's set, so if he puts it up on You Tube I'll post a link. You'll see that they're a really good band and that it would probably be a good idea to drop the costumes (in Japan, many many bands feel the need to have costumes, when they actually dress pretty well and look much better off-stage) and just let the music speak for itself.