-
When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
The wizard works his magic once again...
- Thread starter coolhandluke
- Start date
coolhandluke
Well-Known Member
It's pretty much the equivalent in price to a GW USN jacket. Dave does offer a discount if purchased directly from him though (not through eBay).
WW-2 Era AN-J-3A G-1 M-422A W&G USN HORSEHIDE LEATHER FLIGHT JACKET REPRO BUILD | eBay
For a proposed build you are now admiring one of my custom renditions of a late WW-2 by W&G. This jacket is one of the more truly unique USN flight jackets. Or pix from my original horsehide N288s-35805 AN-J-3A jackets.
www.ebay.com
Mark Hutchins
Member
AN-J-3A specs require knits to be the same brown color as the jacket. See paragraph bottom of page two pertaining to knits.
Some A2 knits faded to a reddish color with age and sun exposure.
As a customer order modern copy, it is whatever the customer wants.
No question that the jacket is very nicely made.
Attachments
coolhandluke
Well-Known Member
Yes, you've already made your point and others respectfully pointed out that the "required" specifications weren't always followed by those fulfilling the contracts. The jacket maker specializes in collecting and restoring Monarch manufactured jackets. Likely over decades of time with countless hours of documentation and research. I'll honestly trust his first hand experience in handling original jackets over the published requirements. Let's not beat a dead horse here and just politely agree to disagree.
Last edited:
Mark Hutchins
Member
Three Monarch jackets, plus a mix of others. Never seen red knits myself or in the specs on a USN jacket. I think by the 1940's the wool dying process was more color
fast than in some of the A2's. As I said, a modern copy can have anything the customer desires including polka dots and rainbow knits. Just not original, historical or factual.
The lining color did vary in the M422 and M422A's with G&F and maybe HLB and Monarch using a red or purplish color lining material, but I think later everyone was using a more brown liner as is required / described in the official specs.
Attachments
Flightengineer
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, just cause you've never seen something yourself doesn't mean it never was.
Maverickson
Well-Known Member
Mark,
Yes I agree that it's hard to argue against specifications. That is until you enter the real world.
Please see one of my all original W&G AN-J 3A jackets. One of the jackets I utilized to to derive my interpretation. That jacket can be viewed (# 42) within this same thread.
As seen below with this original AN-J-3A. My reproduction comes from W&G's N288s-35805 contract. Moreover, the jackets from this contract directly contradicts your USN specifications not once but twice.
Note, the stitch work seen in the close up below appears to be all original.
That jacket seen above is one of the four like W&G AN-J-3A 35805 jackets I have accumulated. Note the factory red knits and horse hide. Albeit I have witnessed same W&G 35805 jackets with brown colored knits that appeared to be factory.
Your entire argument reminds me of our conversation regarding that H.L. Block you owned and claimed to be a pre War non labeled M-422. I suppose you convinced yourself your jacket was an M-422 since it did not have the horizontal stitch work along the back of the collar. Exactly like the three builders for the M-422 originally did as per the USN spec
The jacket seen directly below is an original (preWar) size 40 Monarch M-422. There are no horizontal stitch work on the collar as seen on (most) later models.
A close up of one of my Monarch M-422 reproductions.Note that there is no horizontal stitch work on the collar its self.
In Spite of the fact that Block choose to omit that horizontal stitch work generally seen on most all M-422a, AN & G-1's. Still it goes without saying that those USN jacket specs do have merit. But they are far from being the end all.
Obviously your specifications convinced you again (because as you indicated to me prior that all makers followed USN specifications to a T and you have never seen a deviation) telling you that your Block jacket definitely had to be an M-422. If only because only the M-422 omitted that stitch work and the specifications backed you up.
All in spite of the fact that Block never built a M-422.
Cheers, Dave
Yes I agree that it's hard to argue against specifications. That is until you enter the real world.
Please see one of my all original W&G AN-J 3A jackets. One of the jackets I utilized to to derive my interpretation. That jacket can be viewed (# 42) within this same thread.
As seen below with this original AN-J-3A. My reproduction comes from W&G's N288s-35805 contract. Moreover, the jackets from this contract directly contradicts your USN specifications not once but twice.
Note, the stitch work seen in the close up below appears to be all original.
That jacket seen above is one of the four like W&G AN-J-3A 35805 jackets I have accumulated. Note the factory red knits and horse hide. Albeit I have witnessed same W&G 35805 jackets with brown colored knits that appeared to be factory.
Your entire argument reminds me of our conversation regarding that H.L. Block you owned and claimed to be a pre War non labeled M-422. I suppose you convinced yourself your jacket was an M-422 since it did not have the horizontal stitch work along the back of the collar. Exactly like the three builders for the M-422 originally did as per the USN spec
The jacket seen directly below is an original (preWar) size 40 Monarch M-422. There are no horizontal stitch work on the collar as seen on (most) later models.
A close up of one of my Monarch M-422 reproductions.Note that there is no horizontal stitch work on the collar its self.
In Spite of the fact that Block choose to omit that horizontal stitch work generally seen on most all M-422a, AN & G-1's. Still it goes without saying that those USN jacket specs do have merit. But they are far from being the end all.
Obviously your specifications convinced you again (because as you indicated to me prior that all makers followed USN specifications to a T and you have never seen a deviation) telling you that your Block jacket definitely had to be an M-422. If only because only the M-422 omitted that stitch work and the specifications backed you up.
All in spite of the fact that Block never built a M-422.
Cheers, Dave
Last edited:
mulceber
Moderator
This photo of an original Monarch AN-J-3A seems relevant:
If you need further proof that contractors routinely deviated from spec, read up on Foster v. United States. The whole thrust of L.W. Foster's case (which they won), was "hey, you guys have never cared about adhering to specifications before, you can't just start dinging us on it now! Oh and btw, your specifications are unreasonable, because nobody in their right mind would construct a jacket like that."
If you need further proof that contractors routinely deviated from spec, read up on Foster v. United States. The whole thrust of L.W. Foster's case (which they won), was "hey, you guys have never cared about adhering to specifications before, you can't just start dinging us on it now! Oh and btw, your specifications are unreasonable, because nobody in their right mind would construct a jacket like that."
Last edited:
coolhandluke
Well-Known Member
If you account for fading/ age, it looks pretty close to my eye. The originals may have been a touch more plum brown than dull purple.
Nickb123
Well-Known Member
Dave, you have reached the upper stratosphere with your repros and attention to detail. Go any higher and you’ll need an astronaut suit.
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
Mark
First and most importantly the overriding factor to all the jacket specifications for jackets made during that time period was that it was wartime and contractors were scrambling to make their contract quotas. Many times they used materials that differed from the quoted specs just to get the jackets out the door. Less scrupulous contractors tweaked the contracts to cut their production costs and make more money. We’ve also come across differences in the materials used to make jackets in the same contracts, as many times a stock pile of knits or zippers would run out prior to the completion of the contract run and the makers would use different knits or zippers to complete the contract. Point here being is nothing was absolute.
First and most importantly the overriding factor to all the jacket specifications for jackets made during that time period was that it was wartime and contractors were scrambling to make their contract quotas. Many times they used materials that differed from the quoted specs just to get the jackets out the door. Less scrupulous contractors tweaked the contracts to cut their production costs and make more money. We’ve also come across differences in the materials used to make jackets in the same contracts, as many times a stock pile of knits or zippers would run out prior to the completion of the contract run and the makers would use different knits or zippers to complete the contract. Point here being is nothing was absolute.
Last edited:
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
Mark
I forgot to mention one other point. There’s a few guys on this forum who have mastered the skill, technique and detail of creating reproduction jackets to the point of it being doubtful that we will be able to tell the difference between their repros and originals in about 10 or 15 years. I won’t mention them by name for fear that I might overlook one, but they create jackets with such detail that they count the number of stitches per inch on originals and duplicate that in their repros. That’s pretty accurate detail. Not trying to have a go at you here , just trying to explain the differences we often see between originals and their specification info.
Cheers
I forgot to mention one other point. There’s a few guys on this forum who have mastered the skill, technique and detail of creating reproduction jackets to the point of it being doubtful that we will be able to tell the difference between their repros and originals in about 10 or 15 years. I won’t mention them by name for fear that I might overlook one, but they create jackets with such detail that they count the number of stitches per inch on originals and duplicate that in their repros. That’s pretty accurate detail. Not trying to have a go at you here , just trying to explain the differences we often see between originals and their specification info.
Cheers
Maverickson
Well-Known Member
Hi All,
Please see yet another example of red knits on a USN type jacket. A same make and model Star with red knits as mentioned earlier by the Silver Surfer. As per John Chapman's Flight jacket CD. In this case a post War Star 55J14.
As seen the pix are detailed enough to indicate that these red colored knits are in fact original to the jacket.
Here is what John had to say about this particular jacket's red colored knits.
"This jacket has extremely reddish knits, which is very unusual, though several others from this contract have been seen with these red knits."
Obviously it is not unheard of for USN flight jackets to have different colored knits or other than brown.
Cheers, Dave
Please see yet another example of red knits on a USN type jacket. A same make and model Star with red knits as mentioned earlier by the Silver Surfer. As per John Chapman's Flight jacket CD. In this case a post War Star 55J14.
As seen the pix are detailed enough to indicate that these red colored knits are in fact original to the jacket.
Here is what John had to say about this particular jacket's red colored knits.
"This jacket has extremely reddish knits, which is very unusual, though several others from this contract have been seen with these red knits."
Obviously it is not unheard of for USN flight jackets to have different colored knits or other than brown.
Cheers, Dave
Last edited:
coolhandluke
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much sir.
Lord Flashheart
Well-Known Member
That's an absolutely cracking jacket. Congratulations @coolhandluke . And what's more it'll just get better and better I'm sure. Enjoy it every moment that you can !
Dave is without doubt our resident wizard in these things and a genuine enthusiast. Our reference sticky on USN jackets would be much the poorer without his contributions. And as Jan mentioned the Foster case revealed just how much the manufacturers had to work around the specifications, with the tacit agreement of BuAer, to make the jacket design work in production.
Dave is without doubt our resident wizard in these things and a genuine enthusiast. Our reference sticky on USN jackets would be much the poorer without his contributions. And as Jan mentioned the Foster case revealed just how much the manufacturers had to work around the specifications, with the tacit agreement of BuAer, to make the jacket design work in production.
