Original CBI ATC – interesting?

[bobbyball]

Hi everyone,

As well as acquiring the painted A-2 in my other posting, this is another jacket that I picked up whilst at Beltring the other week. A Roughwear 18091 contract goatskin – quite big for it's stated size.

On the surface this is just an ATC Hump pilot A-2 but inside there is a patch which is similar to the famous Wright Field patch and sewn behind the ATC patch is what I believe the shield patch of the 2nd Infantry (nicknamed the Warriors). Curious – maybe his brother was in the army or maybe he was previously involved with them – although I think this highly unlikely. I think the painted rank is an interesting detail. The metal rank on the shoulders does appear to be original as there is evidence of it being there for some time on the sewn leather squares. The jacket has had a previous patch sewn prior to the ATC and there is evidence of a patch being sewn on the inside right of the jacket so it may well be a re-issue. There is no evidence of an overdye and the knits are all original with a few darns here and there.

If anyone can identify the painted goatskin patch on the inside back it would be greatly appreciated. I am still researching this although it did come with some history and provenance up to 1949.

Thanks, Bobbyball

 

[unclegrumpy]

The patch on the inside of the Jacket is for the Panama Air Depot...or "P.A.D.". There was also an AAF Air Depot in Philippines just before the war that was also known as "P.A.D.". It uses the same patch design, but the color combination is different.

Panama:

Philippines:

 

[unclegrumpy]

I don't think that this is a "Hump" pilot's jacket. The ATC was all over the globe, and know as the Ferrying Command early in the war. The Air Depot and ATC patches make sense together.

The the reason for the 2nd Infantry Division patch being sewn on the inside is hard to know. The patch is an early WW II version, but why it is there is anyone's guess. Maybe you have some history to add, that would help.

The Major's leaves look postwar to me. Not necessarily so, but likely. If you notice under the P.A.D. patch, there are painted Lt. Colonels leaves, so maybe the guy went back to his permanent rank after the war.

The guy could also have been a WW I pilot that was called back. A lot of those guys ended up in the more or less stateside commands...like Panama. He might have stayed in until 1949 to get enough time in to get a retirement. The printed wing on the name tag is a WW I style wing, which might support this idea, but again not necessarily so.

I think this is most likely one guy's jacket, rather than a reissue. It looks like it has had some postwar adjustments to the insignia, but done by the veteran, and done long ago.

 

[bobbyball]

I don't think that this is a "Hump" pilot's jacket. The ATC was all over the globe, and know as the Ferrying Command early in the war. The Air Depot and ATC patches make sense together.

The the reason for the 2nd Infantry Division patch being sewn on the inside is hard to know. The patch is an early WW II version, but why it is there is anyone's guess. Maybe you have some history to add, that would help.

The Major's leaves look postwar to me. Not necessarily so, but likely. If you notice under the P.A.D. patch, there are painted Lt. Colonels leaves, so maybe the guy went back to his permanent rank after the war.

The guy could also have been a WW I pilot that was called back. A lot of those guys ended up in the more or less stateside commands...like Panama. He might have stayed in until 1949 to get enough time in to get a retirement. The printed wing on the name tag is a WW I style wing, which might support this idea, but again not necessarily so.

I think this is most likely one guy's jacket, rather than a reissue. It looks like it has had some postwar adjustments to the insignia, but done by the veteran, and done long ago.

Thanks for all the info so far – much appreciated. The painted oakleaves on the inside are in fact gold (my photography I'm afraid). I also thought the rank could be postwar but they have been there a long time as there is an impression mark on the leather beneath – who knows maybe late 1940s.

One theory for the second div. patch is that he may well have had a connection through a brother/relation but this is obviously impossible to prove.

 

[Steve27752]

Blimey Bob, You where busy at Beltring! Both are good looking jackets.

 

[unclegrumpy]

One theory for the second div. patch is that he may well have had a connection through a brother/relation but this is obviously impossible to prove.

It is probably one of those unsolvable mysteries, but maybe the guy was temporarily attached to the Second Division in some way in WW II. If this guy had WW I service, he would have been at least in his mid forties in WW II. A lot of those guys had staff positions, and it would not be too much of a stretch to learn the guy was in charge of a some kind of Division Air, Quartermaster or Transportation function when the unit was organizing. Once that job was over, he could have gone back to the AAF in the ATC. He might not have ever been permanently assigned to the Second Division, but felt the connection was strong enough to add their patch inside his jacket as a remembrance of his service attached to them.

 

[dujardin]

thanks to present your beautiessssssss

 

[bobbyball]

Thanks for all the interest and ocontributions so far – this is what makes this forum so fantastic.

Last night I spent a couple of hours doing some research – I came up with an Edward C Jenkins from Berkshire, Massachusetts who was born in 1922 and enlisted in the Air Corps in 1940 (according to AAD archives) so not a ww1 veteran.

As for the 2nd infantry patch, I am trying to trace a 'Jenkins' who served in the div. as this could be a possible explanation – maybe he did have or lose a brother and this was in memory of him. I have checked the stitching under UV light and it does not glow so appears contemporary.

I was looking at the major ranks last night and IMO they are ww2 vintage – very heavy and not full hollow backs, however they are not maker marked. They are very clean and bright but it is entirely possible that these were taken off when flying as they would probably catch harnesses being on the edge of the shoulders – the separately applied leather patch underneath on the shoulders is entirely consistent with the application of metal rank from what I have seen – please correct me if I am wrong here.

I sold my previous ATC Roughwear 18091 whilst at Beltring and with all the other things I sold, this jacket jumped out at me because of the condition of the goatskin. Whilst substantial, it is very soft and flexible and a joy to wear. I'm not sure if it has been treated in any way but it feels almost like an early M422a I have in terms of flexibility. Where the lining has separated at the neck the underside of the goatskin is quite orange in colour which leads me to think this would have been a mid-brown colour goat originally. Maybe it has darkened as the years have gone by or been treated in some way but a long time ago.

I think I will do a bit of remedial repair to the neck area just to stop it from getting any worse.

Interestingly enough, there was another 18091 for sale at Beltring – much worse condition and missing its spec label – it was patched but looked like a put together IMO. Original examples of the Roughwear goatskin 18091 contract seem to be surfacing at the moment. Maybe these jackets have lasted better than their horsehide counterparts? I am a real fan of goatskin as it is so much easier to wear and has that unique grain that horse never has – it doesn't mind getting wet either.

Someone brought over a Spiewak to show us but it had rotten away at the neck and armpits, good size 44 but too bad a condition – I have been told that WW2 Spiewak goatskin does not hold up over the years as well as some of the other makers?

 

[bobbyball]

I don't think that this is a "Hump" pilot's jacket. The ATC was all over the globe, and know as the Ferrying Command early in the war.

I have just noticed that there are stitch holes on the left shoulder that indicate a removed patch which is the same shape as a CBI shield. The research continues...

 

[unclegrumpy]

Last night I spent a couple of hours doing some research – I came up with an Edward C Jenkins from Berkshire, Massachusetts who was born in 1922 and enlisted in the Air Corps in 1940 (according to AAD archives) so not a ww1 veteran.

You might have the right guy, but one has to use caution using enlistment records to ID Officers. Many, if not most, Officers volunteer rather than enlist, and are thus not in that database. A lot of AAF Officers did enlist, as that was a pathway to become a pilot if you were short on education, lacking other requirements or wanted to be assured of being in the AAF rather than another service. It made it so if someone deficient in some area washed out along the way, he knew he would end up in the enlisted ranks. This list also excludes prewar pilots, Reserve Officers, and Officers that transferred to the AAF from other branches of the service.

One problem I see with your ID, is I think that fellow is too young. I think the PAD patch you have is probably from sometime between 1939 to 1943....and most likely just prewar or earlier. In 1940, the minimum college requirements to be a pilot were tougher, and at 18, this guy would have just gotten out of High School. It would have taken him about two years to become a pilot.

I also think the WW I style wing on the name tag is a major clue. It is very uncommon to see used in WW II, and I don't think was arbitrarily put on there.

 

[unclegrumpy]

I did a little research, and this might be your guy...or might not! :shock:

It is hard to say for sure without knowing more about the specifics of his history. This is from the 1942 Army Register....his entry does not change in later years. Jenkins is a common name, so there could easily be other possiblities, especially Reserve Officers that were inactive and thus hard to track.

This guy fits well because he was probably a WW I pilot....."A.S." stands for "Air Service". What is interesting is this guy transferred to the Infantry in 1921. He did not get past Lt. Colonel....and that rank might be a problem as far as the jacket goes, but maybe not, as the Major's leaves could have been added.

What is interesting, is this fellows Infantry background might explain a connection to the Second Division patch. I would rate this guy as a strong possibility, but it would be worthwhile to try and track other WW I era pilots named "Jenkins" to see what other choices emerge.

 

[bobbyball]

Thanks unclegrumpy,

You obviously know your history and I really appreciate your expertise here. Yes, I think I have alighted on the wrong Jenkins :?

I got this from a very reputable European dealer at Beltring, along with some other items so I'm sure it is a genuine piece. He gave me all his details which I have checked out and said if I had any concerns he would refund me without question.

I believe that Jenkins did his service in ww2 and then continued until the late 1940s?

Is there a definitive way of telling the metal rank is postwar? They are heavy pinback and have a deep linear hollow at the back which follows the 'spiderweb' pattern on the front.

 

[johnwayne]

Wow, another corker there Bob and now I recall it was this the one you was telling me about (not the no name Cable/828th BG) when we spoke at Beltring.
Ive said before on this forum but just when you think maybe youre happy to sit (not literally!) on the jackets you have, up pops a thread like this or Goodwear issues a new maker and it gets you salivating again, so I guess the moral is not to keep trawling this site too much!!!

Cheers
Wayne

 

[unclegrumpy]

I believe that Jenkins did his service in ww2 and then continued until the late 1940s?

Is there a definitive way of telling the metal rank is postwar? They are heavy pinback and have a deep linear hollow at the back which follows the 'spiderweb' pattern on the front.

If the jacket did indeed belong to the Edward Jenkins I copied the Army Register entry on, it does not look like he had service beyond WW II. I did a little further research on him, and found he was a WW I pilot and graduated from flight school on August 4, 1917. It also looks like he died in 1965.

As far as the Major's leaves, it would help if you posted a photo of the back. When you say "heavy pinback", do you mean an actual pin with a catch, or two posts...which are called "clutch back". The style of leaves on your jacket are a late war pattern. This was the style adopted by the US Army & Air Force after the war so there would be one uniform pattern. As far as telling definitively that they are postwar, that can be hard to say 100%. I know this pattern was being sold in both pin and clutch back up into the 1960's. My father was an Army Officer, and was promoted to Major in about 1960, and has these exact leaves with both pin configurations in his insignia box.

Regarding your question about the originality of your jacket. In my opinion from what I can tell from your photos, I think you have an original jacket, with patches and insignia original to it, with the possible exception of the Major's leaves. The Major's leaves would have been easy for someone to add along the way....and easy to remove now.

I don't think the combination of patches are something that someone is going to put together to fake out a collector. The P.A.D. patch is the best patch, and why would someone waste it on the inside? The ATC patch is a later war American made decal style that is very common. The WW I style wing on the name tag is something that I doubt someone is going to just stick on there....and is rare variation to see. As far as the extra holes where a possible CBI patch was, maybe Jenkins was the second owner of this jacket.

In conclusion, I think whoever E.C. Jenkins was, he had that insignia put on the jacket. There is a souvenir of his service element to this A-2, which is pretty common. I don't think it is likely that he was a Hump pilot or there was much in the way of combat glory related to his service. My guess is he probably flew a desk in WW II. However, the probable WW I connection makes this a very interesting jacket. The collecting question boils down to how interesting that connection, and where he served is to you.

 

[bobbyball]

I will take some more pics of the insignia at the weekend – they are pin back across the centre of the leaf (with a holding catch) as opposed to clutch back.

I would wear this jacket to airshows and did think about removing the major's leaves as I feel a bit uncomfortably wearing rank insignia. A few years ago at an air show, I remember an old vet getting quite upset seeing people wearing original jackets and covered in rank when they were clearly too young to have 'been there'. In a way, I feel it is similar to wearing medals that you have not been awarded.

 

[bobbyball]

Just noticed something I have not seen before on an original A-2.

The pocket snaps are covered on the inside, similar to the covering of cloth on the collar snaps. All of the original A-2s I have seen have the inside part of the snap exposed. Has anyone else come across this before? I have never seen this feature on any repro jackets.

 

[Roughwear]

Bob, Please could you post a pic of the pocket snap coverings.