Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[MeachamLake]

Pretty sure it’s spam! Reported...

What relevance does this link to modern repro civi jackets have to very early pocket flap A-2s?

 

[Roughwear]

That was my thinking and too and am hoping for an answer from the new member.

 

[Skyhawk]

I have identified the throat latch. Luckily they are still being made today. I have ordered some and they will be here Monday! BTW look at that enormous collar profile at the epaulet. Looks like the collar is nearly 6" wide in back and tapers to a more normal width in front. Dumbo ears!

Hook with loops edited out to show shape. Dead ringer to the original. Two wires close together, and a bulging hook shape at the tip.

Hook: Eye:


Regards,
Jay

 

[zoomer]

Careful with those measurements Jay! Scaling up from part of a photo can go wrong easily...measure twice, cut once...

One thing to consider carefully is the degree of roll-over in the collar. Usually this starts at, or forward of the epp. It becomes more pronounced towards the front. If the shadowing was weird in the photo, it could look like taper instead of rollover...

 

[zoomer]

Personally, if I see pics of repro A-2's being worn, and there's no blousing, it simply does not look authentic to me after years of staring at 1000's of pics till bleary-eyed..

!!!!! agree completely. (and not just because of my spare tire.)

Truth be told, not many here would want to wear an original if they could for other reasons besides fit. [...] If many folks out there shelled-out over a grand for a repro, and received what they would have during the war, I'm sure the jacket would be promptly boxed-up and shipped back.

The trouble is, you can't get what you would have during the war for any price. And certainly not what you would have before the war.

The economics of garment making and selling today mean that the equivalent A-2 would have to be spongy cowhide, not thin horse; a pieced back, sleeves, and maybe front(!); a nylon liner; pockets big enough to hold a puppy, with handwarmers; and a mall-jacket fit, well beyond what's needed for layering. Yes, leaner cut jackets can be found at retail, but they're always extra tight thru the middle. That is a fashion rule.

The right weight and drape of horsey (or thinner, even!) puts you in a whole different price class. So do larger hides. Even smaller pockets mean upscale. (An average customer doesn't mind small pockets on a $30 pair of jeans, but on a multi-hundy leather coat they insist on usefulness!) So you might as well appeal upscale and charge accordingly.

 

[Skyhawk]

Careful with those measurements Jay! Scaling up from part of a photo can go wrong easily...measure twice, cut once...

One thing to consider carefully is the degree of roll-over in the collar. Usually this starts at, or forward of the epp. It becomes more pronounced towards the front. If the shadowing was weird in the photo, it could look like taper instead of rollover...

For sure! It can appear different in the photos. Looks like that collar is flopped over on the right (his left). This would make it look wider than if it were standing up. You can see the bulge by the epaulet. I would imagine if you grabbed that collar and pinched it up so the collar stand wass vertical, The collar would be a lot more narrow.

 

[Dr H]

I still think that posters are missing the/my point about fit.
I agree - most A-2 jackets are blousy/blousons as they were designed to be, the SAT is blousy+ - almost a peascod belly in comparison.
If you want to wear it that way please go ahead, my point wasn’t about the accuracy or otherwise, simply that most wearers won’t.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

The throat hooks on the "Goldsmith" are Fur Coat hooks

 

[33-1729]

Pic found by me, dated by San Diego History Center.
Rockwell Field, Coronado, Calif., May 7, 1932.

(This thread is already getting too big and involved to keep track of...)

It doesn't. Ross Hoyt's probably doesn't either. Both collars look very flexible, even flimsy, as they'd look if they lacked securements of any kind and - I feel - as if they were made of capeskin or something similar in weight and thickness to A-1 skins. (Maybe the calfskin mentioned in the A-1 service test document!)

Have we been looking at a Werber 32-6225 all along?

Using some math … prior to 1976 the fiscal year began on 1-July and ended on 30-June, so a 1932 dated contract would have occurred from 1-July-1931 until 30-Jun-1932. If the photograph below has been accurately dated by the San Diego History Center as from May 7, 1932, then Brig. Gen. Westover is most likely wearing a snapped-pocket Werber 32-6225 and not a later Werber 33-1729.

That means the one picture below contains each of the first three A-2 contracts; from left-to-right, an early 1932 button-pocketed SAT 32-485, a late 1932 snap-pocketed Werber 32-6225, and a 1931 button-pocketed Goldsmith 31-1897. Zoomer scores!

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes I was thinking the same thing. That middle jacket does look like it has Werber features.
Look at the pocket flaps, definitely different than the SAT next to it. With the exaggerated round middle part, looks like a Werber Pocket.



Regards,
Jay

 

[2BM2K]

Could you double-check the date?

When the photo was first posted on VLJ I noted the date down as 17th May 1933.

Update: Found a link, 1933

https://calisphere.org/item/ark:/21198/zz002dhrpr/

 

[2BM2K]

Slightly higher def photo;

 

[Skyhawk]

Looking at all the old photos, I can't help but wonder what type of people these guys were. Hap seems like a very positive fellow. In a lot of the photos he is smiling or has an amused look on his face.

I can imagine them at this event chatting about the jackets they were wearing and the differences of the early contracts.

Westover: "Hey Hap, what's with that huge collar stand and that funny little loop on your jacket?"

Arnold: "I want a Werber...."

-Jay

 

[SuinBruin]

The pocket corners on the General Westover's jacket are noticeably square, almost like an Aero.

 

[Skyhawk]

Slightly higher def photo;

Thanks that helps a lot! I can see that I was correct in the throat latch type.

 

[zoomer]

Looking at all the old photos, I can't help but wonder what type of people these guys were. Hap seems like a very positive fellow. In a lot of the photos he is smiling or has an amused look on his face.

Hap could be a terrific taskmaster and insistent on things being done his way, but his manner was such that subordinates did not resent him. "You can't hate a guy who is smiling at you all the time!" He did, however, get a chancey rep from Army higher-ups for always speaking his mind - often colorfully - on the topic of air power, which didn't always sit well with them.

Westover -"Tubby," for his powerful build despite his short stature - was, as you might expect from his spit and polish bearing, serious and detail-minded. As Chief of Air Corps, he was anxious that Arnold and other dynamic aviators like Frank Andrews not rock the boat in Washington, but trusted Hap implicitly to fill in as Assistant CAC when he flew to various air bases around the country.

I can tell you nothing of Howard except that he retired in 1939 due to incapacity for active duty, still a colonel.

 

[33-1729]

Could you double-check the date?

When the photo was first posted on VLJ I noted the date down as 17th May 1933.

Update: Found a link, 1933

https://calisphere.org/item/ark:/21198/zz002dhrpr/

Great find! The LA Times shows the article containing this photo is dated 17 May 1933. Don't know the actual photo date when it was taken at the Biltmore Hotel, as the date is not listed on the negative. I would expect taken at that time rather than a file photo, but maybe the San Diego History Center knows something we do not.

Until we're certain, the hunt for the Werber 32-6225 goes on!

 

[Roughwear]

It is great to know the photo must have been taken before or during May 1933. So Westover is wearing what is clearly a Werber A-2. It is either a Werber 33-1729 or the earlier Werber 32-6225.

 

[33-1729]

It is great to know the photo must have been taken before or during May 1933. So to summarise in it Westover is wearing what is clearly a Werber A-2. I would agree that it can't be a Werber 33-1729 as that order dates to after 1st July 1932. So it must be from the Werber 32-6225 order. Therefore it would seem that only Goldsmith and Security A-2s had buttoned pockets.

Yes! I agree that Brig. Gen. Westover is wearing a Werber A-2.

Key photograph dates are

1932 fiscal year (1-July-1931 until 30-Jun-1932) for Werber 32-6225
1933 fiscal year (1-July-1932 until 30-Jun-1933) for Werber 33-1729​

It may be a Werber 32-6225 or Werber 33-1729 if the photograph is on or near 17 May 1933. If the San Diego History Center date of May 7, 1932 is accurate then it must be a Werber 32-6225. Maybe Zoomer can confirm?

At least we know the Goldsmith and SAT have button-pocket flaps. And the first three contracts had been procured by July 19, 1932 (below).

I would not be surprised if all Werber A-2 contracts had snap-pockets, given their cost-conscious approach. Just don't know for certain (yet).

 

[zoomer]

When the photo was first posted on VLJ I noted the date down as 17th May 1933.

For the pic of Howard, Westover, and Arnold at the LA Biltmore, May 17, 1933, is correct.
May 7, 1932, is the date for the 3 officers in front of the P-26 at Rockwell Field, with Tooey Spatz at right in his putative prototype jacket.