WW2 leather colour/finishes

[blackrat2]

So in light of some recent posts in the Vintage section, am I confusing myself in what original’s looked like when they came out of the factory
There has been lots of talk about pigment finishes and some great pics of Broncos where this finish is clear to see but they didn’t all come out like this surely?!
So was the original spec for pigment finish but that companies like Aero then branched off from this as contracts progressed through the war years
Why isn’t pigment being more readily made available by the current big makers??
I don’t currently have an original but I would appreciate any of you good folk posting up so we can see the variance in jackets

 

[mulceber]

Here’s my United Sheeplined.

I could be wrong, but my impression was that all jackets were pigment-finished, but that various contracts played fast and loosewith the requirement that they all be seal brown horsehide, and as a result there was wide color and leather variation.

 

[CBI]

Pigment looks "cheap" by modern standards. I think more general public buyers look at the finish like on your US and think it looks like their Grandfather's crappy old 60's leather jacket. They think sprayed kinda yucky brown in just not a fashionable color........by modern retail standards.

We all "get it" here.

Actually, I can see the point of many people not liking the look. It make the leather look cheap.

I just commented on another thread about this.

For the high-end makers, who the heck is going to pay good money for leather essentially painted dog-poop brown.

Hey, I love these jacket, don't get me wrong..

 

[Skanstull]

For someone new in this game, it is somewhat surprising that so many enthusiasts care/obsess over minute details like nuance of stitch colour or the curvature of the pocket flaps on repros, but do not seem to be the least bothered by the fact that the leather used (aniline veg tan leather instead of pigment dyed chrome tanned) is completely different and therefore, drape and fades very different from the originals... But I suppose CBI may be on to the reason.

 

[blackrat2]

No I get that but most Aeros don’t appear to be pigment unless that’s just 70 years of weathering that has changed the appearance
I know GW have the odd pigment finish leather maybe it’s more subtly applied now

 

[mulceber]

Yeah, it’s always nagged at me, ever since I’ve known about it. I reckon CBI is right.

 

[jeremiah]

Leather color has little to do with what finish is used. You will get a more even surface color (opaque) with pigment and semi-aniline finish than with a more transparent (showing depth of colors) with full aniline finish.
colors were seal and russet with dark seal being the depot redyes from what I gather and East mans book says the interpretation Of those colors was all over the place and varied from label to label.

 

[33-1729]

So in light of some recent posts in the Vintage section, am I confusing myself in what original’s looked like when they came out of the factory
There has been lots of talk about pigment finishes and some great pics of Broncos where this finish is clear to see but they didn’t all come out like this surely?!
So was the original spec for pigment finish but that companies like Aero then branched off from this as contracts progressed through the war years
Why isn’t pigment being more readily made available by the current big makers??
I don’t currently have an original but I would appreciate any of you good folk posting up so we can see the variance in jackets

Great question. I think when we look at the originals we have to distingush between “as made” versus "re-dyed" examples. The untouched versions I’ve seen suggest it was dyed all the way through, if at all, with re-finished jackets having a painted-on finish. The original leather would be drum dyed, if needed, but they couldn’t possibly do that with finished jackets. So two completely different methods to obtain a fairly uniform color, yes?

 

[jeremiah]

I am having a hard time understanding your meaning above.
mare you suggesting originals were drum dyed?
Pretty sure the hides were first pigment finished by spray.
Proof is in originals. When you can see the lighter color under the wear areas where the pigment has worn away.

 

[blackrat2]

Just can’t get my head round this
Pilots and Ausreenactors Broncos look poles apart, Pilots looks a lot less pigment finished to my eyes and Aero jackets again don’t appear pigment to me in many of the ones posted on this site

 

[jeremiah]

This is a modern repro.
BK dubow In a pigmented finish. I have stripped the color and redyed but the pigment finish is there. Underside of leather is soft as suede and natural colored. This was not drum dyed originally.

 

[33-1729]

I am having a hard time understanding your meaning above.
mare you suggesting originals were drum dyed?
Pretty sure the hides were first pigment finished by spray.
Proof is in originals. When you can see the lighter color under the wear areas where the pigment has worn away.

Looking at the horsehide dyeing requirement for "color penetration from front to back" in a 1942 dated letter (https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/against-the-grain.23058/post-242827), among others, and then the line item in goatskin spec KK-L-170C (below) requiring "drum dyed" from grain to flesh it does follow. I don't know if "drum dyed" was explictly called out in all the earlier specs though. I'm certain age would darken the top of the leather more than the center and I don't think they would use much dye, if at all, given the added cost.

 

[jeremiah]

Yeah
Thanks for the link.
I still don’t think all were done this way but would account for why some originals show more wear than others being so old.

 

[Juanito]

Looking at the horsehide dyeing requirement for "color penetration from front to back" in a 1942 dated letter (https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/against-the-grain.23058/post-242827), among others, and then the line item in goatskin spec KK-L-170C (below) requiring "drum dyed" from grain to flesh it does follow. I don't know if "drum dyed" was explictly called out in all the earlier specs though. I'm certain age would darken the top of the leather more than the center and I don't think they would use much dye, if at all, given the added cost.

View attachment 25270

Thanks for the post. I haven't seen it for a while. Here's the inside of a an original Rough Wear, clearly dyed all the way through; please note is is a depot redye, but was done very well:



Here's an original Perry I had, also dyed all the way through. The Perry has its original exterior finish--it is not a redye:



The Diamond Dave jacket I had was similar to these two being dyed all the way through. It was chrome tanned and I would suspect drum dyed. All of my Good Wear jackets are almost white on the backside of the leather (inside, the pockets, anyway.

 

[jeremiah]

Well there ya go. Thanks.

 

[blackrat2]

Ok thanks for that link
So they were all pigment but depends on aniline or semi-aniline as to how they ended up looking?

 

[jeremiah]

Ok thanks for that link
So they were all pigment but depends on aniline or semi-aniline as to how they ended up looking?

No

so here is how these three finishes break down.
Aniline or Full aniline is a dye applied. Full Aniline and pigment do not coexist. Aniline is a dye which slams into the leather and this varies on different parts of the hide due to surface conditions and thickness. Aniline would be a poor choice for a leather sofa in terms of how it would mark up and stain but would be a pretty sweet color with time and wear.
Semi aniline is like aniline but with a bit of both the dye and the pigment coating to give it more strength and durability. This can be seen in the way the color is on the leather.
usually the grain will be corrected for the semi aniline and pigment finish.
Pigment coating is a coating which can be applied in varying thicknesses to the hide. It can and usually does erase any character the leather can have. I’d say the hides from wwII were pigment coated or rather semi aniline.
pigment is applied to the top coat and is more of a solid color just like the house paint on a wood block as opposed to a stain (full aniline) on wood. With the pigment you can still see the grain of the wood but no character.
with a stain you get both.

or try this read.
https://leathermilk.com/identify-types-leather-finish/

 

[Southoftheborder]

Yes, clearly the high end repro makers want to make jackets in beautiful vegetable tanned hides that people will be happy to pay the money for rather than the perhaps more boring looking but more period accurate repros in correctly finished hides. Particularly as prices have snowballed. Not that it would be even possible to obtain really correct hides now with the old chrome tanning methods no longer allowed - in the west anyway.

But it has always bugged me nevertheless. Particularly when some makers claim on their sites that these flashy, expensive, mostly Italian hides were used in originals.

 

[blackrat2]

Jeremiah thank you finally makes sense to me, I kinda understand why some original’s look so “dull/flat”
Be good to see some more examples posted up of originals on here as they don’t seem to be posted about so much

 

[jeremiah]

I guess I could have just said that pigment dye differs from aniline dyes.