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Why was the B-10 jacket discontinued in less than a year?

FreddyF9

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone,
Without any doubts, if you live in a temperate weather country like me, where the medium winter temperature is around 5 to -5 degrees Celsius, a B-10 jacket will be the most worn in your winter outfit.
I have a BR one and I simply love it, for civilian use it couldn’t get any better than this; but you can’t say the same for its military career, since it was replaced by the B-15 after only 9 months (if I remember well) as the pilots had some issues with it.
Does anyone know the reasons why this awesome jacket was discontinued in such a short time?
 

Griffon_301

Well-Known Member
Owning both types, I'd choose the B-15 over the B-10 any day...
I love the pockets of the B-15 and to a certain extent also it's off-centre positioned zipper....
Maybe it was the better positioned pockets that led to the replacement of the B-10... Bear in mind that pilots did not wear jackets alone in the cockpit and the side opening pockets may have had advantages when also wearing life-vests, harness etc...
 

Pilot

Well-Known Member
Agree with Phil, B-15s are much
more comfy and „ ergonomical“.
The B-15 nylons are even easier to handle if stained and also more robust against nips and scuffs.
 
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FreddyF9

Well-Known Member
I totally agree about the B-15 being way more comfortable than the B-10, but to me this doesn’t seem enough to replace it in such a short time. Keep in mind that it is almost identical to the G-1 (just made out of cotton and alpaca lined), which was issued in 1938 (if I remember well) and served the USAF for many years, even outliving the B-10. Even the material wasn’t definitely the reason, since the first gen of B-15 was still made of cotton with alpaca lining as the B-10
 

FreddyF9

Well-Known Member
I think that here we’re all getting confused and missing the point. My question was just why was the B-10 jacket replaced in less than a year, as this post’s title suggest.
 

mulceber

Moderator
I think that here we’re all getting confused and missing the point. My question was just why was the B-10 jacket replaced in less than a year.

I just think the AAF was trying to figure out what jacket would best meet its needs. Think about it. The A-2 had been the default intermediate flight jacket for 12 years. Now the AAF had discontinued it and was trying to figure out what would come next. They tried the AN-J-3 (for all of about 10 seconds), then went for what was essentially a cloth version of the Navy jacket (the B-10), but with better insulation. They then quickly decided they wanted a full-length wind flap and pockets the pilots could put their hands in, and the result was the B-15. That quickly needed some modifications, resulting in the B-15A, which lasted...a few years at least.

I wouldn’t be surprised if aircraft development was in part driving jacket development. In the 40s to early 50s, it seems like aviation jumped forward by leaps and bounds (though I’m not an expert here), so it’s only natural that the demands being made of their flight gear were changing as well.
 

mulceber

Moderator
For the people that were confused, I think Freddy's point is the following:

1. The B-10, in terms of its design, is essentially a cloth version of the Navy’s intermediate flight jacket (okay, subtract the bi-swing back, add the pile lining, but still, similar).
2. The Navy’s intermediate flight jacket is clearly a really good design, since the basic design hasn’t changed very much since they invented it in the late ‘30s.

So, 3. I think Freddy's asking why is it that the Navy jacket has remained mostly the same for 80 years, while the AAF tried that design for 1 year and said “NAH! PASS!”

Personally, Freddy, I think there's a bad assumption in here (unless I'm misunderstanding your point): there's no "best" flight jacket. The Navy and the AAF were doing pretty different things: high-altitude combat that centered on getting bombers to their target so they could pulverize cities, versus low altitude combat that was focused on using planes to defend your own fleet and destroy enemy fleets. There was also, as Burt pointed out to me, a lot of inter-branch rivalry going on. Above and beyond just needing different things, they wanted their jackets to be distinct from each other.

The Navy found a design that worked for them very well early on. The AAF kept trying new designs for a bunch of different reasons: cost cutting, evolving needs, rivalry with the Navy, probably a bunch of other reasons too.
 
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Smithy

Well-Known Member
Combat is the fastest thing to influence the evolution of military kit and clobber, the same as it does for the hardware such as weaponry, vehicles, etc.

The B-15 was adopted due to the fact that the features it had were deemed "superior" in terms of function over the B-10. The change in pockets was as Phil suggests due to ease of access when wearing a Mae West and harnesses (parachute and seat). Interestingly the B-10 was highly received when introduced but that was because it was vastly superior to the A-2 as a flying jacket. But the B-15 was an improvement even more so hence why it was adopted so quickly.
 

FreddyF9

Well-Known Member
Thank you guys for all your answers, sorry for the confusing post of yesterday.
Thank you mulceber, you understood perfectly, I just wrote it bad, I also mistook the AAF A-2 with the navy G-1 because when I was writing that post I cut a paragraph were I wrote something about their similar pocket design (same on B-10’s); the part about the best jacket was just my opinion, the point of this discussion was to figure out why a jacket that I like so much (mostly for its design) was discontinued in less than a year.
 

Griffon_301

Well-Known Member
My referring to being "confused" was about all those wrong facts about the AAF jackets presented in one of the posts by Freddy... call it badly voiced "sarcasm" :D

to come back to the original question: think about how aviation looked like when the A-2 (and B-3) were introduced... open cockpits, barest equipment in the aircraft (no oxygen tube, no life vest, seat pack parachutes, no heated suits mostly); also, aviation did take place lower down, where it was warmer and in peacetime, flying was more of the parade ground drills; not so much dogfighting and heavy maneuvering around, so needed movement for the pilots in the cockpit was also not that much of an issue;
so the rather cumbersome (and in the case of the B-3 bulky) jackets were ok for the day and where used for many years;
then came the world war and with it, a whole new generation of fighters and bombers - high altitude combat was introduced and equipment used by pilots became more and more bulky and cumbersome; first jacket to follow that trend was the B-6 for fighter pilots;
then, when the 8th AF went to Europe, aircrew and especially fighter pilots found out that their equipment was far from ideal for the conditions they were expected to fight in; cockpit heating in the planes was existent but virtually useless and the A-2 jackets did not keep fighter pilots very warm at the heights they were operating in;
many chose to use Tanker Jackets if possible-they were lined, were rather warm and easy wearing, providing ease of movement as well - the first step towards the B-10;
the B-10 followed, but out of said reasons, was quickly superseded by the IMHO superior B-15 types; dont forget, with these jackets came new trousers too, the A-9 and A-11 respectively (IIRC) and they also show the evolution in design...

I dont delve into the shearling jacket development here, but when you wear a B-3 and compare it to a B-15, you will know why the B-15 was superior (again IMHO);
this all is meant with regard to function, not style - but again compared to a B-10, I think the B-15 is the more stylish jacket, as it really looks racy, compared to a B-10 which just looks like a green cloth A-2 with a mouton collar :D (I know this will get me much flak from resident A-2 fanboys here :D :D :D)

and as has been said, after the war, the B-15 was developed in a nylon B-15B first, then into the B-15C dropping the mouton collar and finally, the L-2 series and on...
as has been suggested, jacket design has followed the aircraft design and the needs put upon the survival equipment by ever evolving operational envelopes...
 

Otter

Well-Known Member
Slightly O/T but was the B-15c not initially a recalled and modified 15b that had the collar removed as it interfered with the harness on the then newly introduced model parachute harness ?
 

Griffon_301

Well-Known Member
Think it had more to do with the introduction of ejection seats...but that involved new harnesses as well of course..
 

Pilot

Well-Known Member
Think it had more to do with the introduction of ejection seats...but that involved new harnesses as well of course..
...hard shell helmets and cost cutting...may also have played a role, when removing the mutton collar...
Plus, the USAF was more involved in conflicts taking place in tropical regions rather then Korea and its arctic winter temps.
Finally ( almost) all cockpits were pressurized (and heated/ cooled) and the N-2 / N-3 parkas to be worn over the flight jackets, were introduced if colder climates were a challenge.
 
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