Who has a new line Bill Kelso A2?

[saunders]

Hi,
Got to go where the market is taking us...
the original plan BK had i.e. the decent affordable A-2 went down the gutter, unfortunately
tried that for 3 years now (since 2009) and didn't work out, didn't even breakeven the costs as in 3 years didn't even manage to sell more than 40 jackets.
At the same time the hi-end, high priced jacket makers were so much busy that were not even able keep realistic delivery times. It became clear that no-one cared for affordable A-2 jackets. Not to mention 'house jackets'.
Quality and authenticity seemed to be all that mattered, regardless of price.

This market relies on collectors and jacket enthusiasts who are picky about details. So it's either comply, or die.
BK's sales only started to pick up when quality was improved and started to offer more models. But there's still long way to go. BK is still trying to keep the prices low and has not closed the deal with any supplier yet.
BK is waiting to receive new samples from various sources and then will make a choice.

This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name. So, how is BK supposed to build a good name if they don't offer high quality product?
For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

BK could provide jacket with smooth, lifeless, characterless leathers like ELC used to do before they caliberized and warhorserized everything.
But NOBODY wants those jackets anymore. People who own those and try to sell them on ebay are struggling to get over GBP 200.

The old standards repro with smooth leathers seems to be useless and not worthing anything more than a mall jacket nowadays.

The work and the amount of detail on these jackets demand a high price. If BK could sell the 'decent affordable A-2' by the thousands, then it would make sense. BK tried to cooperate with US retailers to supply them with cheap jackets but was ignored and rejected, because they already had deals with others (e.g. Cockpit), because they didn't want to bother with imports, or because BK jackets were not "Made in USA"

So when all options run out, the only place of refuge was to increase the quality (and concequently) the price.
Might keep a generic model at much lower price, but still need considering.

I think you've made many mistakes in your analysis and in what you are trying to accomplish, not the least of which is trying to sell to a tiny market segment. There are approximately 1, 600 members on this forum, of which about 100 post throughout the course of the year, and only half as many do so with any regularity, yet it seems that you consider these 100 members (about 6.5% of membership), to be indicative of the entire market to which you want to sell your jackets, so you believe high-end quality and authenticity is what is selling these days. If you think the only market is one made up of serious collectors, you're totally wrong; the hardcore collectors are in the vast minority.

Because your vision and products changed a few times now (and it's hard to determine if it's the products, the vision or your perception of the market that's driving BK), you are floundering in a mass of confusion with nothing clear to your potential customers except their confusion and uncertainty toward BK and its products. Your past and current experiences are leading you to make conclusions that may not be valid even though these experiences contain useful data.

If you think you want to compete against GW and ELC, then determine what it is you can offer that's better than what they are doing and make it happen. I can find faults in GW and ELC as businesses and in their products (and I realize that no one is allowed to find fault w/ GW on this forum), and I'm sure you can too if you study their them dispassionately, so if you want to take them on, exploit their weaknesses.

I get paid to oversee the analysis of data and forecast outcomes and could go on for pages, but this is all you get for free. Good luck to you, Platon.

Saunders

What doesn't exist anywhere is a maker of what existed in 1942. A supplier of cheap grainy horsehide jackets selling for $180. If you crunch the numbers through the inflation calculator that is the figure Aero were advertising private purchase A2s for !

Exc. point. But you set the criteria to an artificial standard that cannot be met today and doesn't correctly fit the logic in the terms of the equation from the 1940s. If the equation is to work, we need cheap leather jackets made from the most affordable, most accessible leather (horsehide was cheap and chosen for this reason back in the day) and related common materials, produced using affordable labor in a competitive market, and not made with costly parts, leathers and labor utilized to emulate a standard no longer in common use.

Inflation would seem to have increased more than 10 times from the 1940s ($18.00 then = $180 now), but I'm open to this if you can support it. Bottom line is, we do have A-2 jackets that fit the equation from that applied to Aero's commercial A-2s from the 1940s, but few vocal forum members here would want one from Avirex or Alpha or other merchants that produce cheap look-a-likes in Asia.

Manufacture in Asia with YKK zips and Scovill hardware and chrome-tanned, heavily-processed goatskin or cowhide is the competitive, common standard of our era today. The commercial A-2 from the 1940s was made to a competitive, common standard of that era, and any comparison to A-2 production in this era requires the application of the same common standard of this era.

Saunders

 

[Jeff M]

...

I know these are a lot of "if" statements to be fulfilled, .....
..

Saunders

Exactly.
So far, nobody has stepped up to that plate.

 

[Jeff M]

...

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

Good question. Can't recall with my last Eastman (was some time back).
Are the prices listed on line before or after VAT?
In the states, prices listed are BEFORE taxes.

 

[Anonymous]

I think you've made many mistakes in your analysis and in what you are trying to accomplish, not the least of which is trying to sell to a tiny market segment. There are approximately 1, 600 members on this forum, of which about 100 post throughout the course of the year, and only half as many do so with any regularity, yet it seems that you consider these 100 members (about 6.5% of membership), to be indicative of the entire market to which you want to sell your jackets, so you believe high-end quality and authenticity is what is selling these days. If you think the only market is one made up of serious collectors, you're totally wrong; the hardcore collectors are in the vast minority.

Hi,
The only mistake was that BK has not started with a premium quality product from the very beginning. The changes and constant effort to upgrade the product have confused some of the people here. Experience has shown that the market for premium product is more solid and more safe for such a venture. You may see mistakes in my analysis because you see it from your own point of view.
There may be 1600 members here and only 6.5% are the hardcore collectors but BK doesn't see only that as its market. BK has sold jacket to no more than 10 people from this forum. All the others have not even heard about this forum.
The target group for the premium jacket is mainly the Japanese market and BK is already in discussions with Japan.

Because your vision and products changed a few times now (and it's hard to determine if it's the products, the vision or your perception of the market that's driving BK), you are floundering in a mass of confusion with nothing clear to your potential customers except their confusion and uncertainty toward BK and its products. Your past and current experiences are leading you to make conclusions that may not be valid even though these experiences contain useful data.

Yes some people are confused and think BK does not have Talons, (although they appear everywhere in BK's website) but there is nothing to be done about this. When BK started had no access to Talons, now it has.

If you think you want to compete against GW and ELC, then determine what it is you can offer that's better than what they are doing and make it happen. I can find faults in GW and ELC as businesses and in their products (and I realize that no one is allowed to find fault w/ GW on this forum), and I'm sure you can too if you study their them dispassionately, so if you want to take them on, exploit their weaknesses.

It is not about competing. It's about going up a category going up to the same level as them. People who love GW jacket would still want to buy them and people who love ELC jacket would still want them, and people who like BK jackets will choose BK. Because all above named brands will be offering a different product but of the same quality. It's like trying to choose between a BMW and a Mercedes. Both German cars, same quality, about the same price, but still very different. Choice can be made according to taste.

BK is trying to improve its products to satisfy and please its customers. As all the companies will continue to release new models in new leathers, in new colors, there will still be interest for the fans. I like BK jackets but I own GW, ELC and RM jackets (use to own BR too but sold it) and I am still interested in buying more jackets from the afforementioned makers.

To answer the question about Arco 18775. I don't think it's zero orders because everybody's waiting for the red knits. The jacket is still very fine with the brown knits and the originals didn't all have red knits, there were brown knits too. GW in its site advertises ACME 18775 with brown knits.

Last week BK received samples of the newly made knits in perfect Red Aero color. There was a problem though. The knit maker made a perfect cuff, but instead of the USAAF waistband he sent USN rib rack waistband in red aero color. Luckily, BK has instisted on seeing the samples first, otherwise now would have a ton of useless Red USN knits. This confusion is causing a delay, but BK will sort it out and the new Red Aero knits will arrive soon. I will let you know.

 

[saunders]

I think you've made many mistakes in your analysis and in what you are trying to accomplish, not the least of which is trying to sell to a tiny market segment. There are approximately 1, 600 members on this forum, of which about 100 post throughout the course of the year, and only half as many do so with any regularity, yet it seems that you consider these 100 members (about 6.5% of membership), to be indicative of the entire market to which you want to sell your jackets, so you believe high-end quality and authenticity is what is selling these days. If you think the only market is one made up of serious collectors, you're totally wrong; the hardcore collectors are in the vast minority.

Hi,
The only mistake was that BK has not started with a premium quality product from the very beginning. The changes and constant effort to upgrade the product have confused some of the people here. Experience has shown that the market for premium product is more solid and more safe for such a venture. You may see mistakes in my analysis because you see it from your own point of view.
There may be 1600 members here and only 6.5% are the hardcore collectors but BK doesn't see only that as its market. BK has sold jacket to no more than 10 people from this forum. All the others have not even heard about this forum.
The target group for the premium jacket is mainly the Japanese market and BK is already in discussions with Japan.

Because your vision and products changed a few times now (and it's hard to determine if it's the products, the vision or your perception of the market that's driving BK), you are floundering in a mass of confusion with nothing clear to your potential customers except their confusion and uncertainty toward BK and its products. Your past and current experiences are leading you to make conclusions that may not be valid even though these experiences contain useful data.

Yes some people are confused and think BK does not have Talons, (although they appear everywhere in BK's website) but there is nothing to be done about this. When BK started had no access to Talons, now it has.

If you think you want to compete against GW and ELC, then determine what it is you can offer that's better than what they are doing and make it happen. I can find faults in GW and ELC as businesses and in their products (and I realize that no one is allowed to find fault w/ GW on this forum), and I'm sure you can too if you study their them dispassionately, so if you want to take them on, exploit their weaknesses.

It is not about competing. It's about going up a category going up to the same level as them. People who love GW jacket would still want to buy them and people who love ELC jacket would still want them, and people who like BK jackets will choose BK. Because all above named brands will be offering a different product but of the same quality. It's like trying to choose between a BMW and a Mercedes. Both German cars, same quality, about the same price, but still very different. Choice can be made according to taste.

BK is trying to improve its products to satisfy and please its customers. As all the companies will continue to release new models in new leathers, in new colors, there will still be interest for the fans. I like BK jackets but I own GW, ELC and RM jackets (use to own BR too but sold it) and I am still interested in buying more jackets from the afforementioned makers.

Thank you for your detailed info. I think we all now know a lot more about what you are doing and the issues that you face that require tough decisions. I agree that there is room for more high-end makers and people will buy from those they wish. When you say you see Japan as your biggest market (for premium A-2s) and that you are in discussions with Japan, that sounds more like you want to manufacture as a wholesale supplier to some Japanese merchant(s). Is that correct? I'm surprised to hear that premium A-2s are in such demand in Japan now, as I thought that market was greatly reduced in size, though markedly stronger than anywhere else in the world.

Saunders

 

[m444uk]

...

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

Good question. Can't recall with my last Eastman (was some time back).
Are the prices listed on line before or after VAT?
In the states, prices listed are BEFORE taxes.

The GBP prices generally include VAT. The ones I see on the Eastman and Aero site certainly do. The exception would be a smaller business that is not VAT registered and so no VAT registration number would be shown on website or receipt.

 

[FlyingYankee]

I have one I had for about 2 months, I will be selling it because I am getting a Goodwear, The Kelso has great horsehide but the sleeves are a little short for my Ape like arms.

 

[Jeff M]

I have one I had for about 2 months, I will be selling it because I am getting a Goodwear, The Kelso has great horsehide but the sleeves are a little short for my Ape like arms.

By the timing...I take it is one of the "standard" BK's rather than their new line based on original contracts ?

 

[FlyingYankee]

No, I got one of the first original contract rough wear 27752

 

[Andrew]

Any chance of posting a few pics FY?

 

[FlyingYankee]

Here's mine.

 

[FlyingYankee]

 

[ButteMT61]

Looks good! Very nice.

 

[CBI]

Cool - looks like all Sean's patches!

Jacket is nice too!

 

[FlyingYankee]

I wanted a copy of the flying tigers A2 we have at the CT Air Gaurd. We have all our historical items on display. The pursuit patch was an add on though.

 

[Roughwear]

Thanks for posting these pics. The leather looks very close to WW2 hh. Enjoy wearing your BK RW.

 

[Jeff M]

...

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

Good question. Can't recall with my last Eastman (was some time back).
Are the prices listed on line before or after VAT?
In the states, prices listed are BEFORE taxes.

The GBP prices generally include VAT. The ones I see on the Eastman and Aero site certainly do. The exception would be a smaller business that is not VAT registered and so no VAT registration number would be shown on website or receipt.

Just checked with Eastman on a jacket.
The prices listed on their web site do not include VAT or shipping.

 

[Roughwear]

Jeff, You are correct about the shipping if outside the UK, but VAT is included in the price on their w/s.

The price shown for the goods excludes postage and packing. The charges for postage and packing are shown in the Checkout once you have entered the country and method of delivery, but before you are asked to confirm the order.

 

[Jeff M]

Jeff, You are correct about the shipping if outside the UK, but VAT is included in the price on their w/s.

The price shown for the goods excludes postage and packing. The charges for postage and packing are shown in the Checkout once you have entered the country and method of delivery, but before you are asked to confirm the order.

Thanks Andrew.
Just clarifying.
The question was asked earlier in a side discussion re; ELC's A2 prices vis a vis GW's;

...
Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.

Nope. Just got an email from Gary.
The advertised prices on the ELC web site in the US do not include VAT...so no discount off the listed price over here.
When all is said and done, ELC's A2 prices in the US are comprable in cost to a GW.

 

[m444uk]

The basic A-2 shows £549.99 GBP which includes 20% VAT and UK shipping

http://www.eastmanleather.com/product_i ... cts_id=174

What price comes up if you access the site from the States ?

(If I bought this jacket through my business the VAT would be reclaimed making the cost £458.33.
If I sold it later in the EU I would charge 20% VAT on whatever I sold it for. In practice a sale to a private individual
would be inclusive of VAT)