Who has a new line Bill Kelso A2?

[Anonymous]

I will give you an update
very few A-2 jackets from the new line have been sold to non-members of this forum and to Japan

After the trip to Italy, BK canceled the previous order of leathers from Italy as those found at the new tanneries that personally visited were much better (and much more expensive ). Have ordered sample batches of hides in own specs in several colors and now waiting for the tanneries to deliver. The tanneries need a few weeks to produce them.

 

[Marv]

any news on the delivery of moutons for the M422s yet ?

 

[Anonymous]

the moutons are in production but we're the last ones in the list as we don't buy FCL like others
FYI, FCL means Full Container Load

they will come

 

[saunders]

I will give you an update
very few A-2 jackets from the new line have been sold to non-members of this forum and to Japan

After the trip to Italy, BK canceled the previous order of leathers from Italy as those found at the new tanneries that personally visited were much better (and much more expensive ). Have ordered sample batches of hides in own specs in several colors and now waiting for the tanneries to deliver. The tanneries need a few weeks to produce them.

You say the new leather is better than the stuff on your web site? Obviously, photos cannot tell the whole story, but the photos of the leather do look very good on your web site. Please advise what was wrong with the old leather and how the new leather is improved?

Also, you mention that the new leather is more costly, so will your A-2 prices be increasing or will you absorb this increase in the leather cost?

Thank you.

Saunders

 

[Anonymous]

The new leather is supposed to be better than the old, otherwise why change?
Also, there were consistency issues as were not able to get the same good leathers all the time. So far have been buying left over leathers from the tanneries and there was no way to be sure if the next batch was going to be as good as the last. So nothing is wrong with the old leathers, except that it's not sure if BK can find more of the same.
The major step this time is that BK is going to cut the middlemen and deal with the producers directly by ordering custom leathers. This way will solve many problems.

Regrettably it's not possible to absord the cost when the new leather costs 3/4 times more than the old. The price will increase invevitably but have good hopes that the quality will also increase ten fold.

Will be only able to say for sure once BK receives the new sample leathers.

Thank you!

 

[Persimmon]

The new leather is supposed to be better than the old, otherwise why change?
Also, there were consistency issues as were not able to get the same good leathers all the time. So far have been buying left over leathers from the tanneries and there was no way to be sure if the next batch was going to be as good as the last. So nothing is wrong with the old leathers, except that it's not sure if BK can find more of the same.
The major step this time is that BK is going to cut the middlemen and deal with the producers directly by ordering custom leathers. This way will solve many problems.

Regrettably it's not possible to absord the cost when the new leather costs 3/4 times more than the old. The price will increase invevitably but have good hopes that the quality will also increase ten fold.

Will be only able to say for sure once BK receives the new sample leathers.

Thank you!

Less Eastman and more Goodwear prices to come then ??

 

[Anonymous]

either will have worst leathers than ELC and Goodwear but better prices,
or, will have equal or better leathers than ELC and Goodwear and similar prices.

That's the dilemma.

 

[ties70]

Platon,

in the last weeks the news from BK and your latest updates on the website have almost convinced me: My plan was getting the funds together to get one of your jackets, most likely a Dubow or maybe my first RW. With your updated models the initially low price of the BK house line was history but anyway....the jackets look great and the price was still attractive....

But the more I read these days the more I get confused:

- Can BK currently offer any A-2 jackets or do I get little more than a number on the waiting list?
- Are you still in the mid price segment or does the "new tuscany leather" mean that all other (previous leather) options are off the table and new leather (at a significantly higher price) is all you would offer?

I have a problem to understand your business philosophy...who do you see as your customers? Those of us who want ultimate authenticity pattern-wise? The best leather? A competitive price?

Not sure, where you are going....for me GW is at the top of the list, while RMNZ and ELC are next....nevertheless, with their price policy for the delivered quality / authenticity neither ELC nor RMNZ are currently on my wish list.
I had hoped for BK to fill the niche and deliver a jacket at a price and quality range where ELC was before they ".50 - calibered" everything. If BK now aims for GW's quality and authenticity at a similar price, why should I buy a BK, then?

Don't get me wrong.
I really like what I am seeing, but what the market is really lacking is a compromise: The best available A-2 in a low to mid-price range. This means: It has to be economically reasonable for you and for me....authentic patterns, good looking material, but no high-end leather, no "knocking on GW's door".

Sorry for the rant....had to let some steam...

Still, like your new stuff and am curious to see some of your jackets here before getting my own...

Take care

Ties

 

[wop54]

either will have worst leathers than ELC and Goodwear but better prices,
or, will have equal or better leathers than ELC and Goodwear and similar prices.

That's the dilemma.

Well, keep the two options (or three, even better) and call them "standard" "classic" and "custom" or whatever. It works for the Gibson Guitar brand and it will work for you (i.e. Gibson Les Paul studio , standard, custom).

 

[Anonymous]

Hi,
Got to go where the market is taking us...
the original plan BK had i.e. the decent affordable A-2 went down the gutter, unfortunately
tried that for 3 years now (since 2009) and didn't work out, didn't even breakeven the costs as in 3 years didn't even manage to sell more than 40 jackets.
At the same time the hi-end, high priced jacket makers were so much busy that were not even able keep realistic delivery times. It became clear that no-one cared for affordable A-2 jackets. Not to mention 'house jackets'.
Quality and authenticity seemed to be all that mattered, regardless of price.

This market relies on collectors and jacket enthusiasts who are picky about details. So it's either comply, or die.
BK's sales only started to pick up when quality was improved and started to offer more models. But there's still long way to go. BK is still trying to keep the prices low and has not closed the deal with any supplier yet.
BK is waiting to receive new samples from various sources and then will make a choice.

This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name. So, how is BK supposed to build a good name if they don't offer high quality product?
For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

BK could provide jacket with smooth, lifeless, characterless leathers like ELC used to do before they caliberized and warhorserized everything.
But NOBODY wants those jackets anymore. People who own those and try to sell them on ebay are struggling to get over GBP 200.

The old standards repro with smooth leathers seems to be useless and not worthing anything more than a mall jacket nowadays.

The work and the amount of detail on these jackets demand a high price. If BK could sell the 'decent affordable A-2' by the thousands, then it would make sense. BK tried to cooperate with US retailers to supply them with cheap jackets but was ignored and rejected, because they already had deals with others (e.g. Cockpit), because they didn't want to bother with imports, or because BK jackets were not "Made in USA"

So when all options run out, the only place of refuge was to increase the quality (and concequently) the price.
Might keep a generic model at much lower price, but still need considering.

 

[saunders]

The new leather is supposed to be better than the old, otherwise why change?
Also, there were consistency issues as were not able to get the same good leathers all the time. So far have been buying left over leathers from the tanneries and there was no way to be sure if the next batch was going to be as good as the last. So nothing is wrong with the old leathers, except that it's not sure if BK can find more of the same.
The major step this time is that BK is going to cut the middlemen and deal with the producers directly by ordering custom leathers. This way will solve many problems.

Regrettably it's not possible to absord the cost when the new leather costs 3/4 times more than the old. The price will increase invevitably but have good hopes that the quality will also increase ten fold.

Will be only able to say for sure once BK receives the new sample leathers.

Thank you!

Your detailed answers in this thread are very much appreciated, Platon. Good luck with getting this all sorted out.

Saunders

 

[saunders]

either will have worst leathers than ELC and Goodwear but better prices,
or, will have equal or better leathers than ELC and Goodwear and similar prices.

That's the dilemma.

You've boxed yourself in a corner by thinking you only have these two alternatives. Open your mind and think critically about what it is you're doing and not doing and what you want to be doing (define your market and your product).

Saunders

 

[saunders]

Hi,
Got to go where the market is taking us...
the original plan BK had i.e. the decent affordable A-2 went down the gutter, unfortunately
tried that for 3 years now (since 2009) and didn't work out, didn't even breakeven the costs as in 3 years didn't even manage to sell more than 40 jackets.
At the same time the hi-end, high priced jacket makers were so much busy that were not even able keep realistic delivery times. It became clear that no-one cared for affordable A-2 jackets. Not to mention 'house jackets'.
Quality and authenticity seemed to be all that mattered, regardless of price.

This market relies on collectors and jacket enthusiasts who are picky about details. So it's either comply, or die.
BK's sales only started to pick up when quality was improved and started to offer more models. But there's still long way to go. BK is still trying to keep the prices low and has not closed the deal with any supplier yet.
BK is waiting to receive new samples from various sources and then will make a choice.

This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name. So, how is BK supposed to build a good name if they don't offer high quality product?
For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

BK could provide jacket with smooth, lifeless, characterless leathers like ELC used to do before they caliberized and warhorserized everything.
But NOBODY wants those jackets anymore. People who own those and try to sell them on ebay are struggling to get over GBP 200.

The old standards repro with smooth leathers seems to be useless and not worthing anything more than a mall jacket nowadays.

The work and the amount of detail on these jackets demand a high price. If BK could sell the 'decent affordable A-2' by the thousands, then it would make sense. BK tried to cooperate with US retailers to supply them with cheap jackets but was ignored and rejected, because they already had deals with others (e.g. Cockpit), because they didn't want to bother with imports, or because BK jackets were not "Made in USA"

So when all options run out, the only place of refuge was to increase the quality (and concequently) the price.
Might keep a generic model at much lower price, but still need considering.

I think you've made many mistakes in your analysis and in what you are trying to accomplish, not the least of which is trying to sell to a tiny market segment. There are approximately 1, 600 members on this forum, of which about 100 post throughout the course of the year, and only half as many do so with any regularity, yet it seems that you consider these 100 members (about 6.5% of membership), to be indicative of the entire market to which you want to sell your jackets, so you believe high-end quality and authenticity is what is selling these days. If you think the only market is one made up of serious collectors, you're totally wrong; the hardcore collectors are in the vast minority.

Because your vision and products changed a few times now (and it's hard to determine if it's the products, the vision or your perception of the market that's driving BK), you are floundering in a mass of confusion with nothing clear to your potential customers except their confusion and uncertainty toward BK and its products. Your past and current experiences are leading you to make conclusions that may not be valid even though these experiences contain useful data.

If you think you want to compete against GW and ELC, then determine what it is you can offer that's better than what they are doing and make it happen. I can find faults in GW and ELC as businesses and in their products (and I realize that no one is allowed to find fault w/ GW on this forum), and I'm sure you can too if you study their them dispassionately, so if you want to take them on, exploit their weaknesses.

I get paid to oversee the analysis of data and forecast outcomes and could go on for pages, but this is all you get for free. Good luck to you, Platon.

Saunders

 

[Jeff M]

...

Less Eastman and more Goodwear prices to come then ??

Actually, Eastman ends up costing more than GW, at least here in the states.
Eastman "Rough Wear 27752" A2 in "War Horse" horse hide.... $1088, not including shipping and customs. (Customs around $50-$60, shipping $75 in my experience.) Total around $1223

GW A2......$1149 plus appprox. $25 shipping=$1174

 

[Persimmon]

For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

Platon your comment above is interesting

I placed by email an order for the Arco A2 at the end of May/beginning of June
I wanted the jacket and have sent several emails to Andy and have received replies.

As I understood the delay was because I wanted Red knits and you have had sourcing problems with this.

Surely you could supply red knits by now, (if not what about dyeing them as one Forum member has successfully done that you were interested in ).

So the reason the sales are Zero is because you are not offering the stock to be sold.
Any news on the Red knits by the way ?

I also disagree with your comment ....This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name

People would buy. And if you were crazy to offer such 50% discount prices you would get the orders agianst Eastman. However you don't need to do that.
I think you already have a name out there that is trusted.
Make jackets and see the orders come in

 

[saunders]

...

Less Eastman and more Goodwear prices to come then ??

Actually, Eastman ends up costing more than GW, at least here in the states.
Eastman "Rough Wear 27752" A2 in "War Horse" horse hide.... $1088, not including shipping and customs. (Customs around $50-$60, shipping $75 in my experience.) Total around $1223

GW A2......$1149 plus appprox. $25 shipping=$1174

You also failed to account for the currency-conversion fee of 3% that the CC companies assess to the total purchase on foreign transactions. However, HPA sells the RW 27752 you mention for $1, 105.00 for paper payments or $1, 150.00 for CC payments, and insured shipping in the USA is $25.50, so the ELC is less than or equal in cost.

Saunders

 

[Jeff M]

[..

You also failed to account for the currency-conversion fee of 3% that the CC companies assess to the total purchase on foreign transactions. However, HPA sells the RW 27752 you mention for $1, 105.00 for paper payments or $1, 150.00 for CC payments, and insured shipping in the USA is $25.50, so the ELC is less than or equal in cost.

Saunders

You forgot the $50-$60 import custom duties to the US on the Eastman.
My point is, there is basically no difference in cost between Eastman and GW.
"Somewhere between" the two, is talking splitting a few dollars at most.
At that point...does it really matter?

Getting sidetracked.
If BK is edging up to Eastman/GW price range.....that kind of kills a lot of the impetus to get one for me. I'd rather put a deposit down on a new GW and wait.

 

[saunders]

[..

You also failed to account for the currency-conversion fee of 3% that the CC companies assess to the total purchase on foreign transactions. However, HPA sells the RW 27752 you mention for $1, 105.00 for paper payments or $1, 150.00 for CC payments, and insured shipping in the USA is $25.50, so the ELC is less than or equal in cost.

Saunders

You forgot the $50-$60 import custom duties to the US on the Eastman.
My point is, there is basically no difference in cost between Eastman and GW.
"Somewhere between" the two, is talking splitting a few dollars at most.
At that point...does it really matter?

Getting sidetracked.
If BK is edging up to Eastman/GW price range.....that kind of kills a lot of the impetus to get one for me. I'd rather put a deposit down on a new GW and wait.

The fees you mention are built into the HPA USA prices, and I was ADDING the CC conversion-fee to the import fees you already cited if one bought directly from ELC.

Regarding BK, if they can make an A-2 as good or better than the much-hyped GW at similar price points and have it made and shipped in 3 weeks or less, why would you or anyone else want to wait a year or more for GW? If BK had an A-2 that pleased me and it was selling for $100 less or the same as the $1, 150 price we're talking about, and I could have it when I wanted it, not only would I buy it, but if I really, really loved it, I'd likely buy another and be a BK advocate and long-term customer.

I know these are a lot of "if" statements to be fulfilled, but it's all within the realm of the possible, though maybe not for BK.

And if BK or anyone else could deliver what it seemed as though BK was doing - offer a highly authentic A-2 of nice quality and fit for under $750 - who really wouldn't want this?

Saunders

 

[m444uk]

Hi,
Got to go where the market is taking us...
the original plan BK had i.e. the decent affordable A-2 went down the gutter, unfortunately
tried that for 3 years now (since 2009) and didn't work out, didn't even breakeven the costs as in 3 years didn't even manage to sell more than 40 jackets.
At the same time the hi-end, high priced jacket makers were so much busy that were not even able keep realistic delivery times. It became clear that no-one cared for affordable A-2 jackets. Not to mention 'house jackets'.
Quality and authenticity seemed to be all that mattered, regardless of price.

This market relies on collectors and jacket enthusiasts who are picky about details. So it's either comply, or die.
BK's sales only started to pick up when quality was improved and started to offer more models. But there's still long way to go. BK is still trying to keep the prices low and has not closed the deal with any supplier yet.
BK is waiting to receive new samples from various sources and then will make a choice.

This business is so difficult that even if BK sold the exact same jacket with ELC at half price, people would still be buying ELC. Because, it's all in the name. So, how is BK supposed to build a good name if they don't offer high quality product?
For your info, BK's Arco 18775 is better than Aero's jackets but still zero (0) jackets sold.

BK could provide jacket with smooth, lifeless, characterless leathers like ELC used to do before they caliberized and warhorserized everything.
But NOBODY wants those jackets anymore. People who own those and try to sell them on ebay are struggling to get over GBP 200.

The old standards repro with smooth leathers seems to be useless and not worthing anything more than a mall jacket nowadays.

The work and the amount of detail on these jackets demand a high price. If BK could sell the 'decent affordable A-2' by the thousands, then it would make sense. BK tried to cooperate with US retailers to supply them with cheap jackets but was ignored and rejected, because they already had deals with others (e.g. Cockpit), because they didn't want to bother with imports, or because BK jackets were not "Made in USA"

So when all options run out, the only place of refuge was to increase the quality (and concequently) the price.
Might keep a generic model at much lower price, but still need considering.

I think you've made many mistakes in your analysis and in what you are trying to accomplish, not the least of which is trying to sell to a tiny market segment. There are approximately 1, 600 members on this forum, of which about 100 post throughout the course of the year, and only half as many do so with any regularity, yet it seems that you consider these 100 members (about 6.5% of membership), to be indicative of the entire market to which you want to sell your jackets, so you believe high-end quality and authenticity is what is selling these days. If you think the only market is one made up of serious collectors, you're totally wrong; the hardcore collectors are in the vast minority.

Because your vision and products changed a few times now (and it's hard to determine if it's the products, the vision or your perception of the market that's driving BK), you are floundering in a mass of confusion with nothing clear to your potential customers except their confusion and uncertainty toward BK and its products. Your past and current experiences are leading you to make conclusions that may not be valid even though these experiences contain useful data.

If you think you want to compete against GW and ELC, then determine what it is you can offer that's better than what they are doing and make it happen. I can find faults in GW and ELC as businesses and in their products (and I realize that no one is allowed to find fault w/ GW on this forum), and I'm sure you can too if you study their them dispassionately, so if you want to take them on, exploit their weaknesses.

I get paid to oversee the analysis of data and forecast outcomes and could go on for pages, but this is all you get for free. Good luck to you, Platon.

Saunders

Interesting post. The obvious question is how big is the current demand for high end A2s ?
When I visited ELC a while back there were 2 ladies sewing, a cutter and Alan Eastman doing the other workshop duties. The boss was in the office.
Add in the 2 people at Goodwear and it's clearly a tiny cottage industry in the grand scheme of things.

I've been to Japan a couple of times and volumes seem higher. There at least 30 or 40 outlets selling BR and McCoy stuff at what to us are outrageous prices.

What doesn't exist anywhere is a maker of what existed in 1942. A supplier of cheap grainy horsehide jackets selling for $180. If you crunch the numbers through the inflation calculator that is the figure Aero were advertising private purchase A2s for !

 

[m444uk]

[..

You also failed to account for the currency-conversion fee of 3% that the CC companies assess to the total purchase on foreign transactions. However, HPA sells the RW 27752 you mention for $1, 105.00 for paper payments or $1, 150.00 for CC payments, and insured shipping in the USA is $25.50, so the ELC is less than or equal in cost.

Saunders

You forgot the $50-$60 import custom duties to the US on the Eastman.
My point is, there is basically no difference in cost between Eastman and GW.
"Somewhere between" the two, is talking splitting a few dollars at most.
At that point...does it really matter?

Getting sidetracked.
If BK is edging up to Eastman/GW price range.....that kind of kills a lot of the impetus to get one for me. I'd rather put a deposit down on a new GW and wait.

The fees you mention are built into the HPA USA prices, and I was ADDING the CC conversion-fee to the import fees you already cited if one bought directly from ELC.

Regarding BK, if they can make an A-2 as good or better than the much-hyped GW at similar price points and have it made and shipped in 3 weeks or less, why would you or anyone else want to wait a year or more for GW? If BK had an A-2 that pleased me and it was selling for $100 less or the same as the $1, 150 price we're talking about, and I could have it when I wanted it, not only would I buy it, but if I really, really loved it, I'd likely buy another and be a BK advocate and long-term customer.

I know these are a lot of "if" statements to be fulfilled, but it's all within the realm of the possible, though maybe not for BK.

And if BK or anyone else could deliver what it seemed as though BK was doing - offer a highly authentic A-2 of nice quality and fit for under $750 - who really wouldn't want this?

Saunders

Are you guys Stateside getting 20% off the advertised Eastman web price ? You should be as it includes 20% UK vat (sales tax) which is not payable on exports out of the EU.