• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

To patch or not to patch a vintage MA-1 - EBAY THEFT

Tim P

Well-Known Member
True.
That stank from the get go but I never expected this.
I would pursue this to the end as it is about integrity now. tell ebay, file a crime complaint and then take him his towels back and ask him to return the jacket. Record what he has to say on a dictophone or similar. dont go pissed though, 'stop by' and say you are sorry to bother him but it seems (to you) that he has accidentally sent towels instead of a jacket and rather than have any more confusion you have come to effect the return in person. Have a witness stood by, Here in the UK police officers can be requested to attend a premises to prevent a breach of the peace. Maybe the US is different .Have with you the packaging, copies of all correspondence and photos of the jacket, particularly with any nuances that will set it apart from others. If he has returned the jacket then it wont be in his house will it?
Or maybe the small claims court is the way to go? I take it the towels are monogramed with his initials and not yours?
 

Atticus

Well-Known Member
Clive, I've prosecuted e-bay cases. They are not impossible. I generally prefer that the value involved in the transaction exceed two thousand bucks, but I've charged when it was less...depending on the defendant's criminal history. E-bay cases require some legwork by your local law enforcement, but they're no more difficult to prosecute than, say, a financial card theft where the issuing bank is based in another state.

Go and see the head of your local law enforcement office... don't stop with the guy at the front desk. Show him what you've found about this jerk. I can guarantee that he's done this, or something like it, before. Make an appointment with your District Attorney, if necessary. If the truth is on your side, don't worry about what this e-bay buyer may say or do.

AF
 
WOW I'm shocked at what I just read in this thread, that someone would send you towels. I have a question though. Did you contact the fellow and if so has he replied?

Here is why I ask.. up until he sent the towels, he, as a seller, may actually have been getting the short end of the stick.

In the old days of Ebay, a seller would offer and item for sale, the buyer would pay in full and the money would immediately go to the seller. The seller would have immediate access to the money for the item and also any shipping monies as well. Then (in theory) the seller would send, and feedback would tell the tale after the fact (and the buyer would still have recourse if they were scammed)

Lately Ebay/Paypal has been doing this thing where they take the money from the buyer and HOLD it (no doubt earning interest on that money) and then they ask the seller to send the item before they release the money. Ebay/Paypal often won't release the money until delivery confirmation is shown and even then the buyer can say the item wasn't as described, and Ebay/Paypal will hold the funds and not pay the seller. From a seller standpoint, that really sucks. Because if you are selling something because you actually need the $$$, you can wait up to three weeks for the Ebay/Paypal drones to release money that is, basically, yours. Meanwhile, all the while the item is in transit, and in the hands of a buyer who has the ability to say "not as described" to PayPal, who play God over the transaction, all the while earning interest.

So..(and I am in NO WAY defending this seller) it almost seems like the guy may have just wanted to make sure he got his money before releasing the actual jacket by shipping out in a second mailing. Awful and sleazy, imho, but I wonder if that's his motive, instead of just to scam you outright. I'd wonder if he will reply to you and what he will say. Best of luck getting the jacket that's rightfully yours. Please let us know what happens.
 

Lignemaginot

New Member
horseback leader said:
WOW I'm shocked at what I just read in this thread, that someone would send you towels. I have a question though. Did you contact the fellow and if so has he replied?

Here is why I ask.. up until he sent the towels, he, as a seller, may actually have been getting the short end of the stick.

In the old days of Ebay, a seller would offer and item for sale, the buyer would pay in full and the money would immediately go to the seller. The seller would have immediate access to the money for the item and also any shipping monies as well. Then (in theory) the seller would send, and feedback would tell the tale after the fact (and the buyer would still have recourse if they were scammed)

Lately Ebay/Paypal has been doing this thing where they take the money from the buyer and HOLD it (no doubt earning interest on that money) and then they ask the seller to send the item before they release the money. Ebay/Paypal often won't release the money until delivery confirmation is shown and even then the buyer can say the item wasn't as described, and Ebay/Paypal will hold the funds and not pay the seller. From a seller standpoint, that really sucks. Because if you are selling something because you actually need the $$$, you can wait up to three weeks for the Ebay/Paypal drones to release money that is, basically, yours. Meanwhile, all the while the item is in transit, and in the hands of a buyer who has the ability to say "not as described" to PayPal, who play God over the transaction, all the while earning interest.

So..(and I am in NO WAY defending this seller) it almost seems like the guy may have just wanted to make sure he got his money before releasing the actual jacket by shipping out in a second mailing. Awful and sleazy, imho, but I wonder if that's his motive, instead of just to scam you outright. I'd wonder if he will reply to you and what he will say. Best of luck getting the jacket that's rightfully yours. Please let us know what happens.

I have attempted to contact him by email, but he has not responded at all. I have his phone number, but quite frankly I wouldn't know what to say. The idea of having a policeman accompny me to his house is interesting, but not likely. In that instance, my only hope would be that his wife wouldn't be in on it, and would recognize the towels (not monogrammed with his initials, but easily recognizable). She might not say anything, but at least she'd know what was going on.

Anyway, as soon as paypal knew that I had received what the seller sent - regardless of the fact that I said it was two soiled towels - they refunded his money. Instantly. While I was on the phone with them. They then immediately opened a new complaint from me, contesting their decision.

An interesting theory regarding his desire to simply make sure that he got his money before returning the jacket. But no; that's not what this guy is doing. He knew precisly how this works - even making sure that the TWo towels weighed the same as the package that was sent.

Someone else suggested that in future, when accepting a return, you oen it in front of the postman - but the post office actually refuses to do that - they don't want to be involved in litigation.
 

Tim P

Well-Known Member
Having heard this I have resolved if I ever get a returned item to record the opening of it with a camcorder. full on evidentially sound recording.
 

Lignemaginot

New Member
Atticus said:
Clive, I've prosecuted e-bay cases. They are not impossible. I generally prefer that the value involved in the transaction exceed two thousand bucks, but I've charged when it was less...depending on the defendant's criminal history. E-bay cases require some legwork by your local law enforcement, but they're no more difficult to prosecute than, say, a financial card theft where the issuing bank is based in another state.

Go and see the head of your local law enforcement office... don't stop with the guy at the front desk. Show him what you've found about this jerk. I can guarantee that he's done this, or something like it, before. Make an appointment with your District Attorney, if necessary. If the truth is on your side, don't worry about what this e-bay buyer may say or do.

AF

I think I'd be much more inclined to go the whole 10 yards on this if I hadn't gone through a somewhat similar experience about 7 years ago in Luxembourg - a plumber who was working on the house broke in and stole my WWII German visor cap collection. It was a long road, but I did manage to get back most of the hats and the plumber was forced to pay for what he couldn't recover.

However, in the end, the time and effort took a toll on me and my job, and my family.

I will do what I can within reason, but even if this guy were eventually found guilty in court, what would I gain other than personal satisfaction? He's likely to get no more than a slap on the wrist, and if he's a big scumbag anyway, he'll be laughing.

At the moment, I think my highest return for effort will be to call his house and speak to his wife about these towels that she's missing. If she's not in on it, he'll have some explaining to do at least.

This is all assuming that paypal does, in fact, give me my money.
 

hacker

Active Member
Absolutely amazing!!!!!!!!!!...........I say call the guy, address him by name, stay calm (you'd be a better man then me though!) and tape the entire conversation. Then and only then if you got some incriminating conversation, I'd turn the tables and tell him your going after his balls (legally, that is) if you don't get the jacket back!........might be worth a shot......otherwise , best to put it behind you, easier said then done for sure, but remember, eventually what comes around goes around.....now I remember why I quit selling flight jackets on eBay!.....I thought I was having problems with buyers....Holy sh*t!.....just unbelievable!!!!!!!!!! :shock:


Hacker
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
hacker said:
Absolutely amazing!!!!!!!!!!...........I say call the guy, address him by name, stay calm (you'd be a better man then me though!) and tape the entire conversation. Then and only then if you got some incriminating conversation, I'd turn the tables and tell him your going after his balls (legally, that is) if you don't get the jacket back!........might be worth a shot......otherwise , best to put it behind you, easier said then done for sure, but remember, eventually what comes around goes around.....now I remember why I quit selling flight jackets on eBay!.....I thought I was having problems with buyers....Holy sh*t!.....just unbelievable!!!!!!!!!! :shock:


Hacker


I know you mean well, Hacker, and I'm not trying to get into a legal debate here. However, in many jurisdictions recording a conversation without the consent of both parties is a crime. I think Clive has plenty of safer remedies to choose from.
 

hacker

Active Member
watchmanjimg said:
hacker said:
Absolutely amazing!!!!!!!!!!...........I say call the guy, address him by name, stay calm (you'd be a better man then me though!) and tape the entire conversation. Then and only then if you got some incriminating conversation, I'd turn the tables and tell him your going after his balls (legally, that is) if you don't get the jacket back!........might be worth a shot......otherwise , best to put it behind you, easier said then done for sure, but remember, eventually what comes around goes around.....now I remember why I quit selling flight jackets on eBay!.....I thought I was having problems with buyers....Holy sh*t!.....just unbelievable!!!!!!!!!! :shock:


Hacker


I know you mean well, Hacker, and I'm not trying to get into a legal debate here. However, in many jurisdictions recording a conversation without the consent of both parties is a crime. I think Clive has plenty of safer remedies to choose from.

You may be right, far from being any area of expertise for me, and maybe we can get some expert opinions (hint,hint), but I was under the impression that one could always tape their personal conversations. As to them being admissible in court without the knowledge or consent of the other party, I can't answer to that. But an incriminating statement on tape can certainly prove motivating in many instances. I suspect that since many companies now tell you that your conversation may be taped during phone calls for whatever reasons they state i.e. training, quality purposes, etc. is an implied consent from you if you continue the conversation......the whole situation sucks, and , perhaps it was kneejerk reaction on my part, but frankly I don't really see any great options.....dragging yourself down to do battle with scumbags can be very depressing.....there's an old saying out here......don't get in a fight with a pig, you both get dirty, and the pig loves it :(



Hacker
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
I'm a lawyer, so I suppose you can call this an expert opinion. In some states the consent of only one party is required to record a phone call, but in others both parties must consent. Thus, as a general rule I'd advise caution before jumping into something like this (although it appears that in Clive's state it may be OK, I'm not sure if the buyer lives in the same state). My concern is that aside from the possible inadmissibility of such recordings in a court proceeding, in some cases it's also a felony. You're correct regarding the consent associated with a recording made after a warning is given.

I'd say Clive's best bet is to avoid recording any conversations. If local law enforcement refuses to prosecute the matter criminally, he can file suit in small claims court. If by some chance Paypal refunds his money he can simply chalk this unpleasant affair up to experience.
 

Weasel_Loader

Active Member
I can't imagine how you must feel Clive. It's unbelievable how people can be. I'd have a very difficult time not driving over there as others have said and give it a try. At a minimum, I'd try giving him a call to hear his side. After that, I'd pursue legal help. I wouldn't be able to let this scumbag get away with it. Hope this all comes out good for you Clive and keep us updated as I'm sure you will.
 

asiamiles

Well-Known Member
Weasel_Loader said:
It's unbelievable how people can be. I'd have a very difficult time not driving over there as others have said and give it a try.

If the law isn't going to help you, you could always go into Bronson mode. Drive over there and see what he looks like. If you think you can take him then go up to him and offer him a couple of alternatives! If not, well there's other ways to hurt someone and cost them far more than the price of a jacket. The guy is a dirty crook and deserves all he gets. Unfortunately, I've been on the other side of the ocean from the buyers who have ripped me off.

And you should name and shame him on here for a start.
 

Lignemaginot

New Member
Re: To patch or not to patch a vintage MA-1

asiamiles said:
deeb7 said:
He bought this B-15D with squadron patch, for the same money, a few days later. I wonder how that seller got on ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0395640203

Contact this seller and find out if it's a con that he's playing all the time.

I have emailed that seller twice now - once to let him know that afemma had filed a claim, and once to tell him what I received. Strangely enough, I've not even received an acknowledgement.
 

Lignemaginot

New Member
Just noticed this morning that afemma and the seller of the other jacket have left glowing feedback for each other. Jesus; it would have been easier to accept this if the guy were screwing everyone, but I seem to have been singled out for this honor.
 

ghq1

Member
The whole "item not as described" policy is a huge gaping maw of a loophole . . .and really a contractual subjective condition of personal satisfaction . . .subject as we've seen in this case to wholesale abuse . . .

The buyer can send back anything as long as it has a tracking number. Imagine getting back a box of dog poop as a big transactional Eff U.

Moreover, Ebay's item listing form allows you to state your returns policy which is pure fiction given the "misdescription" loophole . .

The auction used to be final . . . .and if you had any initial misgivings up front . . your remedy was clear . . . .Don't bid . . . which is my attitude if a potential buyer has any doubts about what I'm selling . . .I'd rather burn an item in my backyard "Wicker Man" style than sell it to somebody who might have a "misinterpretation of my description" issue.

The only solution I can see is to have the buyer return the item to a 3rd party escrow service . . . . but even this is a big "if" since the seller's address (home or PO Box) is prominently displayed on the "Order Details" section of the auction . . Another solution is to list items here, require a money order and have all sales be final . .. . . Also perhaps excise the tumor altogether and get a Visa merchant account -- they've got to be more sympathetic than a PP drone or online form. Lastly, Ebay could give a Top Rated seller with 4.95 or higher "item accuracy description" rating the presumption that the item was what it was purported to be . . .



It sucks . . . and I feel your pain . . . I've been on Ebay since 97 and have been lucky to have only been sucker punched this way once with a "lost" parcel (but 2 weeks later the buyer listed the unique item!). . .. . Remember when Ebay allowed guns, porn and destructive devices? . . .Those were the rollicking "you bid, you own it, you resell it if it sucks" Postal Money Order days . . .
 

Tim P

Well-Known Member
I feel very inclined to ask him if he has any monogrammed towels or say'

'hi, I am interested in bidding on the watch as it looks superb. can you guarantee me that if I am the high bidder, when I recieve it it will be the watch pictured or will it be two monogramed towels?'
 

greyhound52

New Member
Tim P said:
I feel very inclined to ask him if he has any monogrammed towels or say'

'hi, I am interested in bidding on the watch as it looks superb. can you guarantee me that if I am the high bidder, when I recieve it it will be the watch pictured or will it be two monogramed towels?'
Yeah I like that one :D
 

Tim P

Well-Known Member
I am happy to do it and to get a whole bunch of mates to do the same including ringing with a query, UK time........ ;) but not without a say so.
 

Members online

Latest posts

Top