• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Those damn clown collars!

So I need some advice from you experienced A-2 collectors.

I want to order a Goodwear A-2 a bit down the road here, and the finances dictate that this will be my only a-2 for the near future. Fit is my major concern and the Goodwear A-1 is an ideal fit for me. Its based on the Roughwear pattern and normally the issue would be decided, I'd just order a Roughwear. The problem is I hate the Roughwear collar. So, anyone know of a pattern that tends to fit the same way as the Roughwear but without the clown collar? I'll add that even collars that are fairly square like tht Werber are ok. Its only the doughnut shaped Roughwear that I hate.
 

MikeyB-17

Well-Known Member
I'd say the man to be asking would be John Chapman-he knows his way round the fit of different A-2's better than most.
 
This is surely true, but no doubt John is a very busy guy. Since I'm not going to be ordering in the near future I figured I'd solicit opinions from people who maybe had a bit more time on their hands.
 

Chandler

Well-Known Member
rick.canavar said:
I want to order a Goodwear A-2 a bit down the road here, and the finances dictate that this will be my only a-2 for the near future. Fit is my major concern and the Goodwear A-1 is an ideal fit for me. Its based on the Roughwear pattern and normally the issue would be decided, I'd just order a Roughwear.

So wait, you lost me -- are you getting an A-2 or an A-1? Because, even if the RW and A-1 are similar patterns, they are constructed differently (2 piece back on the A-1, for one detail).

To the question of "clown collars," I've never understood the term. I have a RW repro and have never had a gripe on the collar -- in fact, I was watching The Great Escape the other night and noted the scene where Hilts first meets Von Luger; the way Hilts' A-2 collar lies is just about the same as mine. Is that what's called a clown collar? If so, maybe more detractors ought to look to originals.

Chandler
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
I can see no problem with original RW A2 collars. They may not be as elegant as say the Doniger's, but they are functional and look correct.
 

greyhound52

New Member
I tend to agree my original 18091 has a very small collar compared to some repros. As far as fit the Werber was pretty close to the RW fit but not exact. Bronco and United are different. The unknown maker 27753 (which I have had an original) fits pretty good kind of like RW. I think Werber and 27753 are probably your best bets. BTW I did have John's prototype Werber and it was a nice jacket.
 

better duck

Well-Known Member
I've been curious about "the clown collar issue" for some time now, having read this time and again on the old forum.
Now that it pops up again, now is the time to finally ask: what the blazes is meant by a clown collar??
I have an ELC RW 1401 repro, and I can find nothing clownish with the collar, nor with any of all the repros or originals I have seen on photos on this forum.
So Rick, can you enlighten me?
 

Roughwear

Well-Known Member
Here are some so called clown collars on a couple of original RWs in my collection! :lol: :lol:

23380
8f68_1.jpg


18091
003-1.jpg
 

zoomer

Well-Known Member
The CC is of equal depth all the way around, without any flare-out at the points.
Depending how it folds it can even look deeper in back than in front.
I quite like mine, actually (Eastman 1401 repro).
2403482516_886287b9f1.jpg
 

bseal

Well-Known Member
Rick has a Goodwear A-1. John's RW collars are not at all disproportionately large.

You could consider staying away from A-2s with collar stands, not at all necessary, but that may suit your individual tastes.

Here is where you can see how they look, and fit:

:arrow: http://www.goodwearleather.com/photos/

J.C. would be happy to answer all of your questions directly. I just chewed his ear off yesterday ( wonder what I ordered . . .hahahahaha).

Rumor has it that he will have a seal horsehide Werber up on his site before the month's end (nope not mine) that will look very sharp. ;)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The collar on an original Roughwear is a thing of mysterious beauty- they can fold many ways but they still always look "Roughwear". I've never seen an original Roughwear with a clown collar- not in the pejorative sense. Repros are a whole different story. You can still find clown collars on RMNZ Roughwears- not all mind you- but many. The last RMNZ Roughwear I had had a collar which was 3 1/4" wide NOT including the collar stand! I looked like a big scarf! I also have had Eastmans with clown collars although I think they changed to a smaller collar a few years back. I discovered through massive and constant fiddle-fucking around that even the biggest clown collar (eg. - the RMNZ 3 1/4" monster) can be ameliorated by wetting and folding the BACK part of the collar down to around 1/2" from the collar stand and folding the front straight from the collar stand. I've had a few GW Roughwears and none had a clown collar- just as the originals didn't!
 
My gripe with the Roughwear collar is purely about personal taste. I've no doubt at all that John has the collar down right, isn't overlarge etc. Maybe I'm using the term clown collar incorrectly so I'll just dump it and re-explain it I can.

The size of the collar isn't the issue. Like Zoomer mentioned the collar is cut straight, not shaped like, for example a Dubow. This makes the collar spread wider across the shoulders, covering more of the epaulets. All the straight collars seem to do this, but the Roughwear seems to follow the curve of the collarband in the front more closely so that viewed front the front the collar's widest point is over the shoulders. I think the collar looks circular, or doughnut shaped when viewed from the front because of this. The other straight collars don't seem to have that circular look to me. Like I said, I don't doubt this is correct for the Roughwear pattern, but I personally don't like the look much. Also maybe this appearance has more to do with how the collar is folded, or amount of break-in on the jacket. Zoomer's ELC doesn't show it as much I think.

The reason I was asking about alternatives to the Roughwear specifically is that my A-1 was designed using a Roughwear A-2 for the pattern. My assumption is that the use of a Roughwear pattern should produce a Roughwear fit, even if specifics, like 2 piece back, buttons, etc. have changed from A-2 to A-1. The Roughwear fit seems perfect for me if my assumption is correct.

Since John's jackets are very true to originals and so those of you who have experience with a variety of original makers could say whether another original pattern is close to original Roughwears in overall fit. I will get in touch with John, but its not pressing since I doubt I could place the order sooner than next fall. I just figured I'd ask around for opinions.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Actually- I take it all back- I did own a 1401p original with a very large collar- pretty clownlike- eh? Don't get a Roughwear is my advice.

front_view.jpg

front_view_flat.jpg
 
rotenhahn said:
Actually- I take it all back- I did own a 1401p original with a very large collar- pretty clownlike- eh? Don't get a Roughwear is my advice.

front_view.jpg

front_view_flat.jpg

whoa, that is pretty big. I love everything else about the Roughwear design, maybe I should just over the collar thing.
 

Chandler

Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
pretty clownlike- eh?

Um, not that I can tell -- I guess I just don't get the concept. It doesn't look all that big, and it doesn't stick straight out, perpendicular to your legs and separate your head from your shoulders on all sides. Dunno.

Chandler.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
rick.canavar said:
So I need some advice from you experienced A-2 collectors.

I want to order a Goodwear A-2 a bit down the road here, and the finances dictate that this will be my only a-2 for the near future. Fit is my major concern and the Goodwear A-1 is an ideal fit for me. Its based on the Roughwear pattern and normally the issue would be decided, I'd just order a Roughwear. The problem is I hate the Roughwear collar. So, anyone know of a pattern that tends to fit the same way as the Roughwear but without the clown collar? I'll add that even collars that are fairly square like tht Werber are ok. Its only the doughnut shaped Roughwear that I hate.

Rick,
For me the fit of the RW 27752 and the unknown (Cable) 27753 are very similar. No tight shoulders and no binding underneath the armpits. So, I'd suggest going with the 27753 if the collar is an issue.
 
historybuff_chgo said:
rick.canavar said:
So I need some advice from you experienced A-2 collectors.

I want to order a Goodwear A-2 a bit down the road here, and the finances dictate that this will be my only a-2 for the near future. Fit is my major concern and the Goodwear A-1 is an ideal fit for me. Its based on the Roughwear pattern and normally the issue would be decided, I'd just order a Roughwear. The problem is I hate the Roughwear collar. So, anyone know of a pattern that tends to fit the same way as the Roughwear but without the clown collar? I'll add that even collars that are fairly square like tht Werber are ok. Its only the doughnut shaped Roughwear that I hate.

Rick,
For me the fit of the RW 27752 and the unknown (Cable) 27753 are very similar. No tight shoulders and no binding underneath the armpits. So, I'd suggest going with the 27753 if the collar is an issue.

Thanks Pedro. I'd been eying that one along with the Aero 16160 and maybe the other no-name, 42-18246 as looking good. Maybe the 27753 will be my answer.
 

airfrogusmc

Well-Known Member
Chandler said:
rick.canavar said:
I want to order a Goodwear A-2 a bit down the road here, and the finances dictate that this will be my only a-2 for the near future. Fit is my major concern and the Goodwear A-1 is an ideal fit for me. Its based on the Roughwear pattern and normally the issue would be decided, I'd just order a Roughwear.

So wait, you lost me -- are you getting an A-2 or an A-1? Because, even if the RW and A-1 are similar patterns, they are constructed differently (2 piece back on the A-1, for one detail).

To the question of "clown collars," I've never understood the term. I have a RW repro and have never had a gripe on the collar -- in fact, I was watching The Great Escape the other night and noted the scene where Hilts first meets Von Luger; the way Hilts' A-2 collar lies is just about the same as mine. Is that what's called a clown collar? If so, maybe more detractors ought to look to originals.

Chandler

Allot of A-1s had 1 piece backs.
 
Top