Um not saying that it is specifically for a parachute, especially not to hook one on to. Seems to me that I saw a pic somewhere of some kinda strap running through (to keep them from sliding off the shoulder perhaps) the epaulette... what the strap was or what kind of kit it belonged to I have no idea. The A-2 was built out of necessity and is a utility type garment, and the way it's epaulette's are designed just seems to me they are there for more than just insignia. They are heavy duty for a reason.
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purpose of epaulettes
- Thread starter wop54
- Start date
I could see where they might offer some bit of cushion and protection from the straps that are hanging off the shoulders.
[img]http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o423/rgraham_album/baladarnell44.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o423/rgraham_album/baladarnell44.jpg[/img]
Peter Graham
Well-Known Member
Geoff, I believe they were designed for rank insignia to be attached and then to be sewn to the shoulders.Atticus said:
bfrench
Administrator
Peter Graham said:
Hi, Folks,
According to Wikipedia they are for rank display and mostly ornamental.
Here's the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epaulettes
The US section is particularly interesting at to when the epaulettes were introduced.
Bill French
Cobblers161
Well-Known Member
JRaptor said:
While you're right in saying it's a utility garment it also formed part of the uniform which was worn not only in the aircraft but also on ground where rank has to be displayed. Epaulettes are for rank insignia.
zoomer
Well-Known Member
How about to feed chute straps thru, in order to keep them from slipping around while seated? I'm not saying it was all that practical, or even tried seriously. It just might have been a rationale for adding them to the design.
There are pix of A-1 wearers with shoulder ranks (painted leather ones). Without the epps, the ranks really look lame.
There are pix of A-1 wearers with shoulder ranks (painted leather ones). Without the epps, the ranks really look lame.
better duck
Well-Known Member
Impossible due to the construction of the parachute harness: there is nothing to slip through: the parachuteharness at shoulderheight is all one piece that has to be put over the shoulder. I'll try to post a pic from Sweetings Combat Flying Equipment soon.zoomer said:
Maverickson
Well-Known Member
srivats said:Long back, epaulets on military shirts were once used as a place to hold the caps the soldier wore ... caps of these kind:
As time went by, these epaulets became symbols of all things military ... so even we moved on to having different kinds of caps, the epaulets stayed.
Yes,
I beleive that you are correct in assuming that.
However, that cap know as the garrision cap to most, was better known as " piss cutter "
in the USN!Yup.
better duck
Well-Known Member
Here are photos from Sweetings Combat Flying Equipment, as promised. From all the types shown, I picked these two types, commonly used during WW2; the others are variations on the same theme. As you can see you have to slip into the harness with your shoulders so to speak, and then fasten the entire rig with the legstraps and chest strap. As you can also see, there is nothing extra necessary to keep the shoulder straps fixed on the shoulders: the entire construction having something of an X-shape, or at least the straps being pulled to the inside, prevent the straps from sliding off.
The harness construction is still used today, with variations of course, in todays parachutes, both military and civilian.
The harness construction is still used today, with variations of course, in todays parachutes, both military and civilian.
tgd31968
Member
Holding a cap was a convienient usage that someone came up with AFTER having epaulets not as a reason to have epaulets. If that were the case, why do civil war and earlier uniforms have them? there were no soft fold flat caps in that period to slide under them.
As I understand it, they are simply decendants of the removable brass and cloth shoulder boards that were commonly worn by officers in dress uniform. Around the time of the American civil war they were still sometimes used for dress occasions. In museums you will sometimes see examples stored in the wooden box they were kept in between formal occasions.
And, as I understand it, those dress shoulderboards were adopted to symbolically represent the armor that knights wore in battle. Since knights were supposed to be noblemen and thus kind of the officers of the day, once metal armor went out of usage they adoped metal shoulderboards as a "shout out" to knights. I am not quoting any particluar reference, but in my reading over the years, that was my understanding.
So, they are strictley ornamental and give garments a "military look"
As far as jackets having them and not having them, I also competitvily shoot in an organization that uses firearms from the american civil war. http://www.n-ssa.org/
Thus I have studied and own uniforms of the period. Epaulets were common on union officer uniforms. Epaulets were included on some confederate uniforms, both for officers and enlisted men, but came and went on some contracts because of shortages or expidiency. So, it is not uncommon for one style of jacket to have them, and others not.
BTW, for those of you that want another obsession, this company makes about the most accurate period clothing for U.S. 19th century military and civilian clothing. I understand he has done some English uniforms too. Jeff produced the uniforms for all the principle actors in Gettysburg and several other movies.
http://www.quartermastershop.com/
I have always assumed the B-3 had the small tabs because it was a waste of material to have the epaulets go all the way under that huge collar.
And by the way there is a far more descriptive name for the overseas cap. Note that it resembles a part of the female anatomy.
Terry
As I understand it, they are simply decendants of the removable brass and cloth shoulder boards that were commonly worn by officers in dress uniform. Around the time of the American civil war they were still sometimes used for dress occasions. In museums you will sometimes see examples stored in the wooden box they were kept in between formal occasions.
And, as I understand it, those dress shoulderboards were adopted to symbolically represent the armor that knights wore in battle. Since knights were supposed to be noblemen and thus kind of the officers of the day, once metal armor went out of usage they adoped metal shoulderboards as a "shout out" to knights. I am not quoting any particluar reference, but in my reading over the years, that was my understanding.
So, they are strictley ornamental and give garments a "military look"
As far as jackets having them and not having them, I also competitvily shoot in an organization that uses firearms from the american civil war. http://www.n-ssa.org/
Thus I have studied and own uniforms of the period. Epaulets were common on union officer uniforms. Epaulets were included on some confederate uniforms, both for officers and enlisted men, but came and went on some contracts because of shortages or expidiency. So, it is not uncommon for one style of jacket to have them, and others not.
BTW, for those of you that want another obsession, this company makes about the most accurate period clothing for U.S. 19th century military and civilian clothing. I understand he has done some English uniforms too. Jeff produced the uniforms for all the principle actors in Gettysburg and several other movies.
http://www.quartermastershop.com/
I have always assumed the B-3 had the small tabs because it was a waste of material to have the epaulets go all the way under that huge collar.
And by the way there is a far more descriptive name for the overseas cap. Note that it resembles a part of the female anatomy.
Terry
Maverickson said:srivats said:Long back, epaulets on military shirts were once used as a place to hold the caps the soldier wore ... caps of these kind:
As time went by, these epaulets became symbols of all things military ... so even we moved on to having different kinds of caps, the epaulets stayed.
Yes,
I beleive that you are correct in assuming that.
However, that cap know as the garrision cap to most, was better known as " piss cutter "
Yup.
tgd31968
Member
And from wikipedia:
"Epaulettes were used in the French army to indicate rank. Epaulettes may be derived from the shoulder pteruges of ancient Roman military costumes. The rank of an officer could be determined by whether an epaulette was worn on the left shoulder, the right shoulder or on both. Later a "counter-epaulette" (with no fringe) was worn on the opposite shoulder of those who wore only a single epaulette. Epaulettes were made in silver or gold for officers, and in cloth of various colors for the enlisted men of various arms. By the early eighteenth century, epaulettes became the distinguishing feature of an officer, leading to officers of military units without epaulettes to petition their government for the right to wear epaulettes, to ensure that they would be recognized as officers[1]. Certain cavalry specialties wore flexible metal epaulettes referred to as shoulder scales, rarely worn on the field. In Europe, some light infantry wore cloth counter-epaulettes. "Flying artillery" wore "wings", similar to an epaulette but with only a bit of fringe on the outside, which matched the shoulder seam. Heavy artillery wore small balls representing ammunition on their shoulders.
Today, epaulettes have mostly been replaced by a five-sided flap of cloth called a shoulder strap, which is sewn into the shoulder seam and the end buttoned like an epaulette.
An intermediate form in some services, such as the Russian Army, is the shoulderboard, which neither has a fringe nor extends beyond the shoulder seam.
From the shoulderboard was developed the shoulder mark, a flat cloth tube that is worn over the shoulder strap and carries embroidered or pinned-on rank insignia. The advantages of this are the ability to easily change the insignia as occasions warrant.
In literature, film and political satire, dictators, particularly of unstable Third World nations, are often depicted in military dress with oversized gold epaulettes."
"Epaulettes were used in the French army to indicate rank. Epaulettes may be derived from the shoulder pteruges of ancient Roman military costumes. The rank of an officer could be determined by whether an epaulette was worn on the left shoulder, the right shoulder or on both. Later a "counter-epaulette" (with no fringe) was worn on the opposite shoulder of those who wore only a single epaulette. Epaulettes were made in silver or gold for officers, and in cloth of various colors for the enlisted men of various arms. By the early eighteenth century, epaulettes became the distinguishing feature of an officer, leading to officers of military units without epaulettes to petition their government for the right to wear epaulettes, to ensure that they would be recognized as officers[1]. Certain cavalry specialties wore flexible metal epaulettes referred to as shoulder scales, rarely worn on the field. In Europe, some light infantry wore cloth counter-epaulettes. "Flying artillery" wore "wings", similar to an epaulette but with only a bit of fringe on the outside, which matched the shoulder seam. Heavy artillery wore small balls representing ammunition on their shoulders.
Today, epaulettes have mostly been replaced by a five-sided flap of cloth called a shoulder strap, which is sewn into the shoulder seam and the end buttoned like an epaulette.
An intermediate form in some services, such as the Russian Army, is the shoulderboard, which neither has a fringe nor extends beyond the shoulder seam.
From the shoulderboard was developed the shoulder mark, a flat cloth tube that is worn over the shoulder strap and carries embroidered or pinned-on rank insignia. The advantages of this are the ability to easily change the insignia as occasions warrant.
In literature, film and political satire, dictators, particularly of unstable Third World nations, are often depicted in military dress with oversized gold epaulettes."
better duck said:Here are photos from Sweetings Combat Flying Equipment, as promised. From all the types shown, I picked these two types, commonly used during WW2; the others are variations on the same theme. As you can see you have to slip into the harness with your shoulders so to speak, and then fasten the entire rig with the legstraps and chest strap. As you can also see, there is nothing extra necessary to keep the shoulder straps fixed on the shoulders: the entire construction having something of an X-shape, or at least the straps being pulled to the inside, prevent the straps from sliding off.
The harness construction is still used today, with variations of course, in todays parachutes, both military and civilian.
Oh the dreaded round chutes...... :lol:
Even if you'd be able to slip your harness through your epaulets, if you had to bail out the opening of the chute would probably either rip your epaulets off or.....look very funny (and severely restrict your movement) while waiting to meet mother earth...
The thing is, at least that's true with today's rigs, the canopy is suspended to the rig at a point slightly forward of your shoulders, so you stay upright while hanging under it, so the epaulets wouldn't be very practical for that
