Original WWII Irvin Trouser Thread

[spitfire]

After a bit of discussion with a few members and the moderators,i have decided to create a thread soley for original world war II irvin trousers.In this thread,we can all discuss original world war II irvin trousers and post any pictures of irvin trousers.
I will start by posting pictures of two pairs of irvin trousers i have.one pair has white wool and the other pair has black/brown wool.both pairs are missing the braces,and only the white wool pair have pockets and a label.I will add a little bit of info about the pictures as i post them.


BOTH PAIR OF TROUSERS SIDE BY SIDE,BACK AND FRONT.

THESE TWO PICTURES SHOW THE BLACK WOOL IRVIN TROUSERS FULLY SPREAD,LEATHER SIDE.

tHIS PICTURE SHOWS THE SEPERATED LEATHER AND THE INSIDE OF THE THIGH POCKET ON THE BLACK WOOL IRVIN.

THESE PICTURES SHOW THE BLACK AND BROWN WOOL USED IN THE TROUSERS.I HAVE NOTICED,DEPENDING ON THE ANGLES AND LIGHT,THE BLACK WOOL ACTUALLY LOOKS BROWN IN PLACES.

THIS PICTURE IS A SIDE VIEW SHOWING THE SIDE POCKETS ON THE WHITE WOOL TROUSERS,BUT NO SIDE POCKETS ON THE BLACK WOOL TROUSERS.

THIS PICTURE SHOWS THE LABEL,LOOP AND LEATHER FOR THE BRACES ON THE WHITE WOOL TROUSERS.ALL THREE ARE MISSING ON THE BLACK WOOL TROUSERS.

THIS PICTURE SHOWS THE LEG WOOL DIFFERENCE IN BOTH TROUSERS,SIDE BY SIDE.

THESE PICTURES SHOW THE ZIPS ON BOTH IRVIN TROUSERS.I DO NOT KNOW IF THE LIGHTNING ZIPS ARE ORIGINAL OR NOT.

THESE ARE PICTURES OF THE SECTION RUNNING UP THE LEG,BETWEEN THE ZIPS AND THE EDGE OF THE SHEEPSKIN.THE SEAMS ARE AT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT HEIGHTS ALONG THE LENGTH.THE BLACK WOOL IRVIN SEAMS ARE HIGHER UP THAN THE WHITE WOOL IRVIN SEAMS.ALSO,THE BLACK WOOL IRVINS HAVE THREE SEAMS,WHEREAS THE WHITE WOOL IRVINS HAVE ONLY TWO SEAMS.

HERE ARE PICTURES OF BOTH IRVIN TROUSERS RESTING ON TOP OF EACH OTHER,SO YOU CAN GET AN IDEA OF THE LENGTH AND WIDTH DIFFERENCE ETC.NOTICE THE THIGHS ON THE WHITE WOOL IRVINS ARE WIDER.THE WHITE WOOL IRVINS ARE SIZE 4,AND AS YOU CAN SEE,ARE EXACTLY THE SAME LENGTH AND WIDTH AS THE BLACK IRVINS.

I HOPE THE PICTURES ARE ENJOYABLE AND HELPFUL TO YOU ALL.

JUST FOR A BIT OF FUN,I TOOK SOME PICTURES OF THE BLACK WOOL IRVIN TROUSERS,WITH A BLACK COATED EARLY IRVIN JACKET I HAVE.I THINK THEY LOOK WONDERFUL TOGETHER IN SOME OF THE PICTURES...( this is when the neighbours dog hassled me.you can spot his poo in the background in some of the pictures :shock: ).

THE JACKET IS 38 - 40 INCH CHEST,SO YOU CAN GET A FAIR IDEA OF THE SIZE DIFFERENCES AT THE WAIST.

 

[Roughwear]

Paul, these are wonderful pictures, showing both the whole trousers and the detail. I notice the earlier pair has Dot cast double trunnion sliders and the typical brass pulls. These were susceptical to breaking and so often jackets and trousers have lost their pulls. Is it possible to have a pic of the label as I might be able to date the trousers from it. They look to be c.1940.

 

[spitfire]

thank you andrew.yes,i will take more detailed pictures of the label for you to check out.i forgot to post this other picture,comparing the leg wool.

 

[spitfire]

a picture of the label andrew.i just remember,i took this a few months ago.if you need better pictures,just ask.

 

[Roughwear]

Thanks Paul. Nice clear linen label with the Air Ministry inspector's stamp too. I can't make out the contract number at the top due to the fold in the label. Do you know what it says?

 

[spitfire]

I have just checked andrew.the stitching cuts straight through the whole length,centrally,of the numbers.it is very difficult to read them,and to guess.i will give it a quick guess,as some of the top sections of the number give me the impression of a 5 etc.
my idea is they could be: 40344522
this is a guess on my side,as it is so difficult.i am basing the number on just the top section visible,and the odd lower section visible.

 

[Roughwear]

I have just checked andrew.the stitching cuts straight through the whole length,centrally,of the numbers.it is very difficult to read them,and to guess.i will give it a quick guess,as some of the top sections of the number give me the impression of a 5 etc.
my idea is they could be: 40344522
this is a guess on my side,as it is so difficult.i am basing the number on just the top section visible,and the odd lower section visible.

I suspect these trousers are the work of Irvin Air chute. The number you quoted above does not look like any contract numbers on my extensive list, but is similar to the 1932 Patent number for trousers-4074451/32. IAC sometimes put this on their spec labels. Indeed it looks very similar to other labels by this maker.

 

[spitfire]

I think you have hit it on the nail.i was seriously deliberating the 3 for a 7.I think the number you have written down andrew,is either the exact number,or one super close.the last two digits,after the slash line,still look like a couple of 2's.if only they were readable.i personally think the number you put down is probably the exact number.

 

[spitfire]

Here are a few better pictures of the label andrew.i tried to angle the shots,to see if it gave a better view.also,i added three pictures of the broken lightning zip pull.perhaps the inside metal will give us a better idea of what the zip pull metals internal make is made of,and whether or not it is a reproduction lightning zip pull.

I hope the zip pull is a repro,as it was me who snapped it

 

[Roughwear]

The label also has the word "patent" so it should read "Patent No. 4074451/32. This patent was awarded to Irvin Air Chute in 1932 and is proof that they made the trousers. There was normally a contract number too.

Oh dear that's an original cast Lightning slider you have broken there. It's identical to my black Irvin's sleeve zips. You can get replacements from time to time on ebay. :cry:

 

[spitfire]

Thank you andrew.it is a shame it is an original,but,at least we can all see the internal make up of the metal now.hopefully,that will help someone with a similar problem identify whether or not their lightning zip pull was original.I am sure someone will find the pictures useful,as i dare say,everyone now and again,has wanted to see inside the metals used themselves.
Here are a few more pictures.i forgot to take new pictures of some of the bad seam structure when i was outside in the sun today.i will post these,and hopefully you will be able to see how a couple of the seams have been badly restationed.

TOILET AREA

BAD REPLACEMENT OF THE SEAMS,FROM SLIGHT TO SEVERLY OBVIOUS.

Hopefully the seams are the originals.

 

[Roughwear]

I currently own three pairs of Irvin flying trousers. The first is from a 1939 contract with Irvin Air Chute. I particularly like the close pile fleece and russet facings. They complete with the elasticated braces.

The zips are the Dot British variety with the mottled and horizonal lined pulls. The pulls and sliders still retain most of their black paint. The leather pullers are also intact.

Here is one of the slider buckets marked Dot British.

The label has the 1939 contract and one of the owners' names: D Haig Francis. The first owner was Peter John Leboldus. He was a Pilot officer and later Flying officer, flying as a navigator and died on 13 Feb 1943 when his bomber crashed returning from a sorte.

 

[Roughwear]

The second pair are later, dating from 1943-4 and were made by Wareing and Co of Northampton. They seemed to have had two owners in the war, Genge, whose name is painted on them and a pilot from the Fleet Air Arm. They are in wonderfully condition with no loss of fleece and hardly any wear.

The zips are double trunnion Dot Made in Englands.

Here is the pristine label.

 

[spitfire]

they are incredible andrew.i have never seen such beautifully preserved trousers before.I don't think the original owners could have wished for a better owner.It's wonderful seeing the braces fully attatched and in such perfect condition.They must be an absolute joy to handle.the stitching is in such wonderful condition.did you do some of the stitching yourself? it is a beautiful job if you did.

 

[Roughwear]

they are incredible andrew.i have never seen such beautifully preserved trousers before.I don't think the original owners could have wished for a better owner.It's wonderful seeing the braces fully attatched and in such perfect condition.They must be an absolute joy to handle.the stitching is in such wonderful condition.did you do some of the stitching yourself? it is a beautiful job if you did.

Thanks Paul. The Irvin trousers needed no re-stitching, but the Wareing ones had a few short sections which I carefully hand stitched using 1940s thread.

 

[spitfire]

I have just won a pair of what the seller says,are brown wool irvin trousers on ebay.he says they are named with the name F/O Nicholson,on the braces.from the pictures,the leather looks pretty dried out,so when they arrive,i will let them be a little hippo and wallow and play in some pecard.
I am really pleased i won these,not because they are brown wool,but because they are more or less the first pair of irvin trousers i have got that are complete - pockets and braces.the other pairs are missing things:

white wool trousers:missing pockets and braces.
black wool irvin trousers:missing braces...... and a zip .
this pair: ? - i will have to wait and find out.

I will take a few pictures when they arrive,and let you know if there is any black or white wool inside the right leg ( he only showed a pic of the left legs wool ).from the sellers pictures,they do look brown wool,but the black wool in my other trousers has a habit of looking brown,so perhaps they have a few segments of black wool somewhere.

 

[Roughwear]

Paul, I noticed those trousers on Ebay. They do look good, despite the lack of good pics. Yes, please post pics when they arrive. Did you get them for a reasonable price?

 

[spitfire]

Surprisingly,I do think i got them for a reasonable price Andrew ( my families jaws dropped when i told them :lol: ).i won them for £132.00.i paid more for the white wool trousers which have no pockets or braces.
When i was a child,i use to visit a farm of sheep rearers in wales ( my family ),and a lot of the sheep farmers and wool shop suppliers,who hung around there and the local market, use to say that most black wool sheep,come from the brown wool sheep gene,and that is why black wool can look brown a lot of the time ( that was in the 60's,before people deliberately isolated and bred black wool sheep,and called black wool sheep a faulty gene sheep ).
Judging by both pairs so far,i have a suspicion that any really black wool the irvin suit makers could find,was used in the irvin jackets,and any black/brown wool they found,was used in the trousers.that would make sense,as the jackets were opened a lot,and the wool would be showing at night,so they would need to be black to hide them better when they were running away from a crash site.there would be less chance or reason,for the trousers to be opened and showing the wool,so i assume they concluded they could use brown wool and black wool in the trousers,as a mix or as a complete wool lining.
When they arrive Andrew,i will take some pictures before i apply any pecard.that way,we may be able to spot anything about the leather,that a coating of pecard may cover up.not just a colour change,but something unsuspecting,like a faint scribble from the pilot,on the knee/lower thigh area while he was in the cockpit, or something like warings made them,and we spot all warings fitted the seperate panels,and had the leather grain pointing in specific directions depending on where they were fitted.as in: all upper trouser panels = the grain faces across the waist. all lower trouser panels = the grain faces downwards.

 

[spitfire]

As a quick after thought,I noticed a comment by Peter Graham in this thread,saying he is wary of breaking a zip:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=486

When i broke my lightning zip,something puzzled me.
1: i have not got strong,muscular fingers that would cause a zip to snap when pressed in,as you can see in these pictures.

And the other thing that puzzled me,was that it looked so clean inside the metal,as seen in these pictures:

Judging by the cleanness inside of the metal,it must have been broken there and then when i pressed it inwards.if it was a flaw,or fractured in anyway,i am sure there would be some form of darker line of metal within the body of the broken metal.air,over years,would have darkened the line of fracture ( just my guess ).It looks to me,Peter Graham is quite correct to be wary of breaking a zip.as can be seen by my flimsy weak hands,sometimes it just does not take much to snap one.

 

[spitfire]

The brown wool irvin trousers have arrived Andrew.They are pure 100% brown wool,no black wool at all.I will take some pictures as they are now,as the stitching will show up beautifully.as soon as i lifted them from the box,a pocket flap fell off due to rotted stitching.the seller really took care to pack them safely,but i guess a bit of rotted stitching cannot hold out for ever.unfortunately,there is no big label on the inside back between the braces,but there is a little unique label,it looks linen,hanging from the back.another little thing about them is the side hip pockets.they have a triangular patch of leather sewn above and below,to strengthen them i guess.the braces are pinstriped,and,judging by the stitching,are original ( i guess flight officers could choose ).the zips are the lightning design with the AM on the back,but a big W,instead of the word lightning,on the front of them.
Anyway,i will take some close up pictures of them,before and after applying pecard leather dressing.