My First B-3 Jacket from Simmons Bilt. Fit Advice Welcome!

Discussion in 'General Flight Jacket Discussion' started by savage.dragon, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    A tilt, whether to the back or front, is more often than not caused by "a belly" in these modern times, but where over indulging isn't a factor it generally means the sleeves are not set in at the right pitch or the sleevehead and/or armhole pattern is faulty, I don't want to explain any more but it shouldn't have taken 6 years to spot the fault in the pattern!
     
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  2. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    doctors-performing-surgery.jpg

    I get it.............surgery on savage-dragon would solve the fit issue
     
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  3. Steve27752

    Steve27752 Well-Known Member

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    To me the front looks too short. I would have asked for the waist to be increased back AND front by the same amount.
     
  4. christophec

    christophec New Member

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    don't overthink, wear it, use it, enjoy it.
     
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  5. Flightengineer

    Flightengineer Well-Known Member

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    RF
  6. savage.dragon

    savage.dragon New Member

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    Hi Geebo. Thanks for the pictures and your photoshop skills! Indeed it looks like a remedy but then again it will leave my wrists and arms exposed.
    I have to think about it and discuss with SB.
    I think the sleeves are perfect as they are and shortening it by another 5 or 10 cm would be too much.
    If it's all an illusion of body proportions then I guess it's not that big of a deal.
    I'll try to see if it's possible to negotiate for a remake.
     
  7. Steve27752

    Steve27752 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck with a re make. But as it was/is to your spec I think you will have to pay for another jacket.
     
  8. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting to know how long the front zipper is.
    We had several boxes of deadstock Dot zippers way back, all 20" so sadly only long enought for Irvins up to 38" although we pushed them to size 40" by dropping them away a tad from the neck but I never liked they way they looked that way.
    With 3 cm added I'd expect your B-3 zipper to need to be 20" absolute minimum, closer to 21" really, any less than 20" and I very much doubt the 3cm length has been added to the front

    PS Irvins in general are fractionally shorter than B-3s
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
    Micawber likes this.
  9. savage.dragon

    savage.dragon New Member

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    Hi Ken
    I have measured the zipper. It turns out to be 48.5 cm, or 19 inches.
    Does this mean the front length is just bonkers?
     
  10. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    I think you've nailed it in a single word, an 18" long zip (plus the 1" requested) is not standard B-3, maybe for a 34" ??? but I can't swear to that
     
  11. savage.dragon

    savage.dragon New Member

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    What do you suggest I do at this point?
    If something like this were to happen at Aero, would I be eligible for a remake and if so, at what cost/ or how would Aero deal with this if something like this occurred?
    Haven't received a reply from SB yet, but I think I'll want to negotiate with them.
     
  12. Steve27752

    Steve27752 Well-Known Member

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    Ken is of course at liberty to reply. But I do not think that is a fair question.
     
  13. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    True Steve.....................I could be biased :eek:
    Maybe others who have had case to return someting to Aero could comment
     
  14. B-Man2

    B-Man2 Well-Known Member

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    Ken
    Savage dragon asked the question , thereby opening the door for your response. Don’t think that you can be criticized for that.
     
  15. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    It should be covered on the returns policy on the Aero website
     
  16. dmar836

    dmar836 Well-Known Member

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    I have made a few jackets, jeans, etc - none to the standards that I would feel comfortable selling as a pro. That said, I could hardly see justifying rebuilding a garment or making one again if it was built to the customer's request. It isn't bad business but evidence that the one ordering knew well what they needed - enough to request a deviation from your standard production. A trade, partial trade, or otherwise would mean now having an off-sized jacket in inventory(hardly bespoke for the next guy) or having to disassemble and remake a majority of the jacket. Some, for example, think it's robbery to charge much for a new zip, replacement cuffs, or a reline. What they might not be able to see, and why so few manufacturers proudly offer this service, is that it may encompass the lion's share of making a new jacket. The B-3 is only one layer BUT unstitching and restitching shearling can lead to early seam failure so must be agreed to cautiously.
    Show me any WWII airman reaching for something in a B-3 without the sleeves riding up. It's just how a B-3 is made. Arguably, your body needs are not standard so you will likely not be able to have a comfortable fit that retains the proportionate look of a B-3. I'm sure some makers will disagree saying they can make you satisfied but you will have to pay them to prove it to me.
    I think I would be tempted to wear it as is, abuse it, and watch the arms shrink a bit as creases develop. A tailor could shorten the back but not add to the front - if that really bothers you. Keeping it and chalking it up to a lesson learned will be your cheapest route IMO. It's not that bad and you might do well to stop caring what a bunch of us say. After all, few of us have the perfect jacket(most after many attempts and lots of $$$) and we even criticize period photos for the improper A-2 fit! What do we know?!
    Dave
     
  17. savage.dragon

    savage.dragon New Member

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    It's not that simple Dave. If it were a standard cut and we both agreed on the back length, and somehow the fit is strange, then fine, I'll chalk it up.
    However, after what Ken told me above, then I have to re-consider. SB and I agreed on the back length but somehow the zipper ends up as if it wasn't changed in porportions to the increased and requested back length.
    In that case, I don't really think it's OK to just chalk it up when something's not right.
     
    Ken at Aero Leather likes this.
  18. dmar836

    dmar836 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I misunderstood. I know Ken is bent on the preexisting bad pattern from 2012 and has a right to be but I thought you requested of SB, before knowing of the possible wonky pattern, that the sleeves and only the rear of the B-3 be lengthened 3cm. With all due respect, and I feel for you, really, that would certainly exacerbate the tilted look as the front would remain original length and thus shorter than the rest of the body. Rotation aside, the sleeve length is its own issue I think. I'm sure Ken is correct with the sleeve rotation and it's effect on the way the body hangs, no doubt at all, but once you agreed on a lengthened back they will likely say all bets are off. Them agreeing with you to do it is simply honoring your request, no? Unless they then said that if you didn't like the back they would later alter it then... Not trying to frustrate you just slow down the negativity train. Its no train wreck at all but I understand the need to vent. It's all about expectations and those can be stoked + or - after the fact.
    I thought the zipper length came up only as a complication if now lengthening the front. Not sure what it has to do with the back. As it stands isn't the zipper the correct length for the front of the jacket? I also assumed that they left the front of the jacket to their standard length and added 3cm only to the sleeves and back as requested/agreed. A claim it hangs short in the front not because of your request for a longer back but because of a preexisting issue with their pattern is a tough sell even if it might prove true empirically. I'm not a maker, seller, nor buyer here - just trying to be objective. I obviously have no dog in the fight so please clarify if I'm mistaken.
    I never said it was simple - quite the opposite.
    Dave
    P.S. Maybe these opinions are all too soon if you are feeling burned but if listening as a friend I still say it isn't all that bad and maybe not even worth the return hassle. I think Geeboos altered print fixed the overall look very well while leaving the body unaltered. The broken in look of that jacket in a few years might be totally different than what you now see.
     
  19. savage.dragon

    savage.dragon New Member

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    Dave, we talked about this back length vs front length before. I simply assumed that if you tell a leatherworker to increase the back length of the jacket, it's given that the front should be increased as well. The back length is the basic unit to determine a jacket's length. Adding 3cm to the back while leaving the front untouched just sounds absurd to me, since that would basically destroy the whole proportion of the jacket. In my mind back then it's like when I say I want to add 3 cm to my sleeve then it means both LEFT and RIGHt sleeves should be added. You don't see anyone adding just 3 cm to just one sleeve, do you? Again, I am no leather worker myself... but that's simply what I assumed when I said I wanted the back length to be 64 cm. Also, I have given them my own body measurements. My arm length, my chest size, my back length etc. They NEVER ever requested me to measure my upper body at the front. Just my back.
     
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  20. Ken at Aero Leather

    Ken at Aero Leather Well-Known Member

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    Out of the many thousands of special orders we've made I can only recall a couple of occasions when we've been given a front length as well as a back length, added length is added length, all the way round, no need to ask for it even if it's described as back length, that's just the easiest and safest point to take the length measurement. Nobody gives both inside leg measurement when ordering a pair of trousers
     

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