M422 best manufacturer

Discussion in 'Reproduction manufacturers' started by Thomas Koehle, Apr 27, 2018.

  1. Persimmon

    Persimmon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    Location:
    Nottingham England

    “To be fair the only thing close to original is the pattern, the zipper and maybe the mouton fur. Everything else is off.”

    Are you even 100% certain that these are OK ?

    I bet Mr Chapman at this moment is thinking of jumping off the nearest tallest bridge holding a banner proudly proclaiming my jacket making career is over.
     
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  2. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    you gonna argue with the photographs?
     
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  3. Persimmon

    Persimmon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,447
    Location:
    Nottingham England
    Effect of OLE in CFA induced arthritic rats wearing M422 original and Goodwear leather jackets
    (Who can argue with X-ray photographs !!! )

    656FC5A8-487A-4638-91A1-AAF3777AAA73.jpeg
     
  4. Ole

    Ole Banned

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    114
    looks like you don't have anything serious to say
     
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  5. DiamondDave

    DiamondDave Active Member

    Messages:
    713
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    I think I have to agree with Grant on this one. The BEST M-422 jackets made in this field are made by John at Good Wear.

    As to some of the points raised earlier in this thread. The second pic shows a Monarch with what looks to be a very washed
    out lining. However, here is a pic of the same exact jacket, taken with proper lighting and you can clearly see the reddish tint
    to the liner...

    [​IMG]

    Here are a couple of other Monarch's of the same contract, and you can blatantly see the red lining...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    AND YES, I am going to argue with photographs... especially when they are poorly shot with a flash, you bet your ass I will argue.
     
  6. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member


    Well said Dave. John's M422 jackets are as close to originals as you will find these days.
     
    DiamondDave likes this.
  7. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    Dave, need glasses man,
    John's lining is not only different color it's different material too. Can't you see that?
    Take a look at the inside pocket of John's jacket is placed too low compared to the "Original that Goodwear copied".
    Also the stitching of the pocket here is wrong

    [​IMG]

    as you can see here

    [​IMG]

    also John's leather in the inside pocket is too narrow (almost not enough room for the snap)

    Moreover, the leather "aniline finish goatskin" per his description here

    Good Wear Monarch Mfg. Co. M-422 Jacket Pattern
    Leather: chrome tanned seal brown aniline finish goatskin

    is wrong as you can see here

    [​IMG]

    (unless if you don't understand what aniline is)

    also the "Thread: wine colored cotton" is wrong

    [​IMG]

    (notice the the "USN" is still missing from the back of the collar.)

    because as we can all see on the original is just brown

    [​IMG]

    but OK I am going to overlook the thread, because that was maybe a matter of taste of the customer for whom he made the jacket, or his.

    In short, if the leather used and lining used are wrong the jacket is off. In this case not even the pattern is correct considering the pocket.

    Maybe it's fair to say that he makes better Navy jackets than anybody else, so OK to answer to the topic "M422 best manufacturer" but under no circumstances accurate to original.
     
  8. Skyhawk

    Skyhawk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    740
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    There were two shades of red rayon liners on the M422 jackets. One was bright red like on the H.L. Block. The other was a burgundy like on the Monarch Above. Others like the Church contract had brown rayon.

    We have all three colors in genuine Bemberg rayon available on Steve's jackets at Headwind.
     
  9. DiamondDave

    DiamondDave Active Member

    Messages:
    713
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    Wow Ole, there is a LOT to unpack here...

    “The pocket is too low”, ok let’s start here. The original jacket is a size 36 or 38 as I recall and yet the reproduction is a 46 or 48. If you knew anything about which you speak you would know that the pocket placement never changes on military jackets, so they are always based off of the front center seam of the jacket and placement has to do with a set distance from the bottom of the jacket, thus when put in a much larger jacket it will appear that it is “off” but it isn’t.

    “Lining color is wrong”. A 75 year old
    Natural fiber, which rayon is, will tend to lose color over time, also colors like these will tend to yellow over the years. This information is from friends and suppliers that we use, who have a combined 200 years in the textile industry. I think it’s safe to say that you’re not comparing apples to apples when putting up pics of a 75 year old garment alongside a new version.

    “Thread color is wrong”. I can tell you that John has handled hundreds of jackets, and even taken apart a few that were beyond repair. One of the best ways to see the actual color of thread in originals is taking apart a jacket and seeing the thread inside the jacket, that thread has been protected from sunlight and fading over the years. Again this is a case of 75 years of wear and tear, and the fading of a natural fiber, such as cotton. So again I say not a fair comparison. The thread on the original that you show here has a distinct reddish tint to it, and was likely an entirely more bold color originally.

    “Type of leather is wrong”. Ok this one I can sort of see what you’re saying. Original leather from those days was chrome tanned and pigment finished. The problem for the modern repro maker is the nobody wants that. When we make something absolutely accurate, we get scolded because it isn’t “pretty”. It is rather matte and not really very appealing. So JC has opted here to use a chrome tanned leather which has a
    slightly different tannage. This is actually a semi-aniline as I recall, this is a matter of using aniline dyes combined with pigment and gives a much prettier finish in the end. And for color and looks is absolutely stunning.

    “The welt pocket inside is wrong”. This is one of those things that is difficult. Many of the larger contractors had dozens if not hundreds of operators in their plants, and oft times you will see differnt methods being employed. So while I see that the photo shows they are different from each other, it is not necessarily “wrong”, especially to an AN inspector of the day. Many time this is the case with original items.

    Now further to your point, you contend that if a pocket flap is a bit different it negates the entire pattern? When one looks at the overall shape of JC’s jackets you can clearly see an astounding attention to detail, which give the overall shape and impression of a jacket of the time. This is why he is thought to be the best. The amount of studying and working out the details of how these things were done is mind-boggling and should be celebrated. A person doing the type of work John has done here is something more akin to an archeologist than a mere “sewing operator”. Remember there is no book you can run out and buy called “making vintage leather jackets”, and many of the hand skills and those skilled laborers of the day are lost to history. I for one say John should be praised, but for some reason he is the target of these types of silly attacks by people who know precious little about what it is that John has accomplished, and what we as jacket makers pull off every day. Get back to me when you have made YOUR first hundred jackets, I feel certain we will have something to talk about.

    DD
     
  10. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    Actually there were many shades
    G&F had salmon red and also mauve like that mint Monarch, Fried Ostermann had an reddish-orange which was similar to the salmon red of G&F but had a more brownish hue, or that mauve like that mint Monarch.
    Edmunt Church had a yellowish brown (and perhaps something else, I don't remember I got to check my closet) and W&G had a dark brown or a salmon red.
    All the H&L block I have were relined so I can't tell you for sure.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
    Ken at Aero Leather likes this.
  11. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    Dave I am not buying any of your excuses. We all see the same photos but the less informed members understand less from what they see and some guys tell them "WHOAAA, this maker is the absolute f**** BEST, that maker makes jackets out of this earth (that's why the astronomical prices) and the poor fellas believe that. I thought I had to analyze for once what we see in those photos for everyone to understand. Because it seems that the old members are so biased that they are happy to overlook certain important details (or are not bothered by them because they don't notice them) to support their favorite maker. Your entire post is an effort to muddy the waters. I can easily contradict all your arguments with a ton of evidence but you bore me so much (you talk to me like I am a newbie, OK I am new here but old in the sport) that I will not do it. I am also tired to be called a troll and a rat by some who prefer for their own reasons to have the facts remain hidden.

    As I said before I own 50 original jackets and many of them are mint and have sold another 50-60 perhaps and what I wrote are observations from many years of collecting and studying the jackets. So please don't try to sell those stories to me.
     
  12. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member

    I think it is about time Ole reveals who he actually is. Generally new members introduce themselves in the bio section.
     
  13. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    My name is Ole Graa Jakobsen from Denmark and work for Maersk Line. Happy now?

    Who is asking?
     
  14. Roughwear

    Roughwear Well-Known Member

    That is great and it would be interesting to see some of the jackets from your collection.
     
  15. stanier

    stanier Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    659
    Location:
    Bedfordshire, UK
    Pushing the developing heat above to one side, I would like to understand cooly, factually and calmly what does make a Good Wear the best M-442(a) you can buy?

    The work seemingly produced by BK, now Headwind and the other chap I can’t remember but posted the other day(!) seems at least comparable to John’s work and with all the right materials and options.

    A 2 plus year waiting list makes a GW a non-starter for me, but for those prepared to wait what is the justification?

    John is a great guy and what he’s achieved for his company and the impact he’s had in the repro market and how it’s upped it’s game is to be applauded, but the extended lead time is ugly frankly to at least me, and needs more than a vague allegiance however well meaning, to justify any premium.
     
  16. DiamondDave

    DiamondDave Active Member

    Messages:
    713
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    Excuses? Facts, not excuses. Having owned a few jackets makes you an expert? I am talking about hundreds of jackets, Hell for John probably more like thousands. Compared to him you are new. And again I say, show me your work, show me the research on what you’re talking about and maybe, I say maybe I will lend some credence to your arguments.

    I would be curious to know, why the vitriol? What has this business man done to so offend you? Or is it simply the fact that you can’t afford a Good Wear, so you take every opportunity to piss on the wok of an artisan? Maybe this speaks more about you than it does about John, just food for thought.

    DD
     
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  17. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    [​IMG]

    You WILL buy a Goodwear jacket. Now...move along.
     
  18. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    Dave, yes John Chapman is indeed a great guy and makes the best jackets he can.
    But he NEVER says that his jackets are the best. You do that and some others because you don't know any better.

    I don't have anything against Goodwear. If you want I can give you similar analysis why Headwing and BK and ELC jacket aren't that good either.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  19. DiamondDave

    DiamondDave Active Member

    Messages:
    713
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    Ole,

    I don’t know any better? I AM a jacket maker, I have made 120 A-2 jackets and 100 motorcycle jackets in the last several years. Someone here is misinformed, but it certainly isn’t me. I did learn much of this trade from John, and I stand behind everything I am saying. Again facts not fiction or assumption based on the viewing a few originals.

    DD
     
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  20. Ole

    Ole Banned

    Messages:
    114
    Ever done a SWOT analysis Dave?
    Do you know what your "W" are?
    What to share them with us?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018

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