interview with our own John Chapman

[a2jacketpatches]

Look at Dubow, who had a very pointed collar- that's really hard to take from an inside-out assembly of two pieces and flip it to right side out and poke out the point. You'll not get the point out all the way if you don't press hard enough, and if you do press hard enough there's a good chance you could poke through the leather or seam, in which case you might have to flip it and resew it.

An interesting problem.

In a mass production enviroment the process would need to be quick, simple and 100% effective or else change the shape of the collar point.

The only idea I can think of is to use an air-line and give it a quirk squirt of air.

Have a jig to hold the nozzle and a foot operated switch for the air release. Partly turn the collar point hold it over the nozzle and release the air.
A bit like blowing up a balloon.

I have a bench mounted dull point to push out the corners of my Blood chits that are stitched inside out first. It's enough of a point to make the sharp corner and dull enough to not poke through. They are then top stitched like an A-2 collar. I'm willing to bet a similar method is used at several different points in jacket construction, pockets etc.

 

[Silver Surfer]

yup, that would explain why the new rw 1401 [1 1/2 year wait] i received from john is spot on when compared with my originals. reckon by john's explanation, it should be, as it was constructed as rough wears were in the 1940s. whats more, the newest dull russet hh [not to be confused with the light russet] is slightly lighter in color from the previous batches, thus, about as close to the original color of a 1401 as i have seen. if fact, a little uncanny in the closeness. as noted, it is amazing that an item once made by the thousands, by companies that made them at the lowest possible cost, is now made in proper detail by only one "contractor". passion.

 

[6148th T.C.Squadron]

Thanks for posting the link, a really insightful interview.

I like the idea of a stock Goodwear "Aero" jacket.

Great idea, making a stock contract that is available on demand.

 

[Dr H]

It's a great idea - perhaps two stock horsehides (collar stand/no collar stand) and a goatskin to cover most eventualities?

Which seem to be the most popular Good Wears? I see plenty of Roughwears out there...

 

[CBI]

Great Article!

John's been talking about a "stock" jacket for a long time. He's just got too many irons in the fire to make it happen - yet!

I would love to see an article like this about John in a mainstream large circulation magazine.

 

[devilish]

I'm glad to see this article getting such a good response, here and on FL. Both guys involved are great people. I am happy to say I had a very small part in helping with content/editing suggestions. The interviewer knows how much of a GW fanboy I am There is some really interesting info in it and I am glad John shared so much.

 

[Andrew]

Fantastic article, i'll have to go back to it again as well. Great timing too as I just received my third and latest JC masterpiece last week, approximately 3 years in the making- a time period purely of my own creation as I can only use it a couple of months a year I had postponed its production on two occasions (selflessly letting others go in my place ).

 

[Stony]

I like the idea of a stock Goodwear "Aero" jacket.

He was telling me about this on the phone the other day and I think it's a good idea. When he told me how many jacket orders he had, I was amazed. I can see why the waiting period is so long.

 

[ButteMT61]

I like the idea of a stock Goodwear "Aero" jacket.

He was telling me about this on the phone the other day and I think it's a good idea. When he told me how many jacket orders he had, I was amazed. I can see why the waiting period is so long.

Those jackets might be the most "accurate" of all - that is, representing a typical jacket of the lines as they were back then. What we get with a JC jacket is the absolute best of what it could be back then. I would worry if I were other makers in that space. Even an "apprentice" or Padawan (nice one!) jacket would have more appeal than many other maker's first tier gear. Nice article, and I'm glad the guy we "know" comes through clearly. Sometimes success is achieved by nothing more than old fashioned hard work, ethics, and a love of what you do.

I've got a Ventura for sale - $3k. :lol:

 

[blackrat2]

Really great post,thanks.
So interesting to understand what drives him on..great to understand the difficulties involved in making these jacket

 

[johnwayne]

Excellent read - gonna put my GW Doniger in a frame and hang it on the wall! JC is an artisan who ignores compromise to the delight of the buyer, which clearly, there are many of us.
Cheers
Wayne

 

[Stony]

Finally read the article and it was what I expected from John. For anyone that has not talked to John over the phone or in person, he is "very" detail oriented and passionate and it always comes out whether you're reading it or listening to him.

 

[ButteMT61]

Finally read the article and it was what I expected from John. For anyone that has not talked to John over the phone or in person, he is "very" detail oriented and passionate and it always comes out whether you're reading it or listening to him.

But does he make good jackets???? :lol:

 

[Dr H]

They're OK, if you like that kind of thing...

 

[Heisenberg]

How can we find the interview of John ?

 

[London Cabbie]

The link to interview is redundant...

 

[Nickb123]

Sadly this interview has disappeared from the internet.

 

[YoungMedic]

One of the most iconic articles of men's workwear ever produced- standing alongside the five pocket denim jean, blue chambray work shirt, and M-47 boot, is the WWII-era A-2 jacket. The A-2 has enjoyed some 6 decades of popular use; from the skies over Europe during WWII, post military life in the US, handed down second-lives, vintage status and countless pedestrian or high fashion civilian variations on the basic A-2 design.
In the past few decades a number of companies have begun reproducing the A-2 in more exacting detail. Brands like Gap have offered basic and relatively inexpensive simulacra of this classic, while some Japanese and UK companies have offered more expensive versions with bullet-pointed claims of exact reproduction.
Since 2006, Good Wear Leather has been earning a name for itself as a highly accurate reproducer of a variety of A-2 contract jackets. Due to Good Wear's designer and sole manufacturer John Chapman's pixel-perfect obsession with detail, the company is regarded in many circles as the world leader in clone-like reproduction of the A-2.
Last November I visited John Chapman at the Good Wear workshop, which occupies the garage and part of the main floor of a tidy suburban home a half hour north of Seattle, Washington.
John, along with sales rep and sole GW employee Vickie Erlandsen, showed me around the shop, explained some manufacturing techniques, and demonstrated some fascinating cutting and sewing processes.
John was kind enough to do some follow up calling and emailing with me about his design and production philosophy that made the following interview possible.


Q: Leather jacket making wasn't your first career, was it?

A: No, I grew up in Seattle as an artist, drawing, painting, and building models. I could have gone into a career in art, but figured there wouldn't be any money in it, so I ultimately went into web design. I got heavily into graphic design and went to school in San Francisco for that for a while, in the late '90s. I worked at a few small start-ups, then got a more stable job at Broderbund and stayed there for a while. But after it was bought and had a lot of downsizing I got laid off. I decided to move back home after that, since housing in the Bay Area is so ridiculously expensive.
I worked a few odd jobs back in Seattle, during which time I bought this old goatskin A-2 that had some rot on it. As an artist, I thought I could paint over the rot and make it at least look like the ideal I had in my mind, but that didn't work out so well. I figured, why not just make one? Sewing doesn't look so hard. I'm not dumb, it can't be that hard to figure out! [laughs] Well of course, sewing is much harder than I had imagined. But I did sit down and work at it. I took apart that A-2 and tried to cut a pattern, bought some cowhide from a local leather suppler, acquired some hardware, sourced some knits. I used my grandmother's vintage White sewing machine, then I used my wife's modern home sewing machine, then bought a Pfaff home sewing machine, which I was able to make a sort of jacket on. Eventually I bought a walking foot sewing machine, which finally was of a quality I felt was adequate for my purposes.
Up to this point I hadn't had any intention of starting a company making A-2s, but a lot of my friends really liked what I was doing, and kept telling me I should make a full-time job of it. A little later I got laid off from another web design job, and decided to give it a try.

Q: Do you still have that first jacket you made?

A: No, it was awful, and I had used an original Crown zipper in it, so I took it apart and recycled what I could from it. But it did get me drunk on the idea that I could make an A-2.
With the new walking foot machine, it worked much better right away, but I didn't know how to use it properly. I didn't know anybody who used this type of machine, so I really learned everything I know about it myself, through experimentation. For instance, there was a mysterious bolt on the top of the machine which kept falling off, and I finally put it on and tightened it down all the way- turned out it regulated pressure on the walking and needle feet. I learned over time that the stitching had to be tight, but putting a lot of tension on the cotton thread would cause it to break. But heightening the pressure on the walking foot with that little bolt squinches the leather a little, and as the foot leaves the leather it expands a little, which cause the seam to tighten up without the thread breaking.
Another huge lesson I learned through experimentation was that, with feeding the leather into the machine, it's incredibly important that you finger the leather into the machine correctly. If you just take two pieces of leather and sew them together the walking foot will have a tendency to pull the material in at slight, torqued angle. You have to put a little english on the leather to make the vertical seam truly perpendicular, instead of a 10˚ angle. You have to use your right hand and press down just so to the right of the needle.
Another example- when you attach a lining to a leather shell, you should attach it with the lining facing up, because the leather has little tendency to pucker, while that lining sure does, so you have to have that facing up so you can really control it and keep it taut as it gets stitched. I had a few puckered linings before I figured that out.
For every process in making an A-2 there are twenty little rules like that I have to obey to get a consistent end result, and I had to learn all of those through educated guessing and trial and error.
I wish there had been someone sitting next too me saying "No, John, here's how you do it…"
Some things I did learn indirectly through other makers. For example, if you look at how a sleeve is attached to a body, after you make the first blind stitch you have to go in to the leather of the body and put in all of these little clip marks, easing cuts, so that they can open up when you cause it to do a reversed curve fold, or else the body panels will develop puckering, because you're trying to allow something to expand that has no space to. I happened to see in a Real McCoy's book the process of their cutting and sewing, and in a close-up of the body panel at the sleeve I could see all of these little cuts in the body and I was like "Oh! I should do that…"

Q: How many sewing machines do you have now that you use on all of your jackets?

A: I have a newer, much more efficient walking foot machine, my original as a backup, a buttonholer, a Brother cloth machine for linings, and for sheepskins, I have a fur machine and a double-needle for horsehide taping. I also have a cylinder bed machine that does one stitch on one type of A-2 only, just one stitch in the armpit. This is for a pre-war A-2 Aeros & Werbers.

Q: How many of these do you use on a typical A-2s?

A: Just 2 for most models: the walking foot does all the leather assembly; then a machine that does the quads and the collar stand, if there is one. Three, if its an early '30s A-2, and needs that special armpit stitch.

Q: These are mostly modern or antique machines?

A: Oh, all newer. I'm not interested, really, in vintage machines. Newer ones are more efficient and easier to maintain. I'm into having the most optimal sewing machines possible. The older ones don't generally even have a reverse, and the parts are so hard to source. I want everything so new that I can just go over to my local machine guy and pick up parts or order them on-line and get them in a couple days. I don't have time to spend days or weeks searching eBay and hoping to get lucky…
My buttonholer, however, is a vintage machine from the '50s that has almost 400 million counts on it, and it's a real beast. It will screw itself up if you look at it funny. But when it is set up right, it works perfectly, and is a beautiful machine.

 

[YoungMedic]

Q: So when you finally had an appropriate, good quality machine capable of easily sewing leather, and were learning to use it, how did other aspects of your craft evolve?

A: My patterns improved pretty quickly, I think, as I really had the skill set for that from my design work. My next really big challenge was sourcing leather. I used the very basic cowhide I had access to for a while, but eventually I found some horsehide, and experimented with that, then got a custom order of goatskin. Funnily, I was talking to a competitor who wanted some pictures of some vintage jackets I had, and I mentioned that I was getting some horsehide from Horween. He mentioned that he was getting some Japanese horsehide. I went and googled "Horsehide Japan" and thats how I found my horsehide supplier, Shinki.

Q: So did you have any other vintage jackets back then?

A: Yes, I bought lots of originals between 1999 & 2006. I also bought repros. I had, for instance, an original and repro Rough Wear, original and repro Dubow, and some other models. I started to notice how much the repros were not like the originals. I'm an artist- I pick things apart. I'm trained to do pixel by pixel perfect stuff, or photo-realistic drawings, and to me, these just didn't work. What I had were beautiful originals, that usually weren't in the best of shape and often were pretty fragile, and rock-solid repos that didn't look like the originals when you put them on. That really bothered me, especially when some of these companies were saying that they were the the apex of stitch-by-stitch perfectly accurate reproduction. I was like, really? I can pick 18 things out of this repro that aren't the same as the original. They never seemed to sit properly when you wore them. These were just A-2s, mind you, though I did also look at many Navy jacket repros, which were also nothing like the originals. The patterns were the biggest problems, I think, for the A-2 repros.

Q: Do you think the pattern problem was just bad pattern making or was it intentional alteration?

A: Oh, purely intentional. I believe they created patterns that, for out of 100 customers, 90+ would like them and not know that they weren't true to original jackets. The arms, for instance, were reproed with wider arm holes and cut to come out more perpendicular than originals. Originals had arms that pointed down slightly. With these repros, when you put your arm in them it drags down the epaulet, giving a very round shouldered look, which is not true to originals, but is very comfortable.
With some of the Japanese companies, I believe they made patterns that were more friendly to Japanese body types, and tended to use the same pattern for different A-2 contracts, just swapping out details to make them look superficially like the originals. But the same pattern, which the original different contracts definitely did not use.

Q: I remember when I was up visiting you last year, and you showed me some really minute details you copied in finishing seams around some pocket tops. Does this hyper attention to detail come naturally after your prior web design work?

A: Oh yes, I had two bosses at my longest job, who would argue for weeks over 1 pixel. I guess it rubbed off. Not that any of our customers would ever have noticed the extra pixel!
But some of those little details are so important. For instance, on an Aero original, there was a trapezoidal shaped leather tab at the base of the zipper in the waist band. Well, everybody who copies an Aero makes a perfect rectangle, but the original was absolutely meant to be a trapezoid, it was not a rectangle! That detail needs to be a trapezoid, just like all of the 100 original examples I've examined. That was a design feature. Or, I have a Rough Wear I was looking at to repro, and carefully inspected every piece while I was dismantling it, and there were these really cool curves in the body panels, which I assumed would have been straight, and I wondered if the curvature wasn't from wear and stretch, but no, after dismantling the jacket I believe the pieces were absolutely cut with those curves in it. When you assemble the jacket you realize that the curves make it a lot easier on the sewer, so they don't have to turn weird corners. It simplifies the sewing process, affects the final form of the jacket, and is absolutely something you need to acknowledge and reproduce, if you're going to make a copy that is in any way true to the original. It is so fascinating to me that someone sat down with a slide rule and designed theses curves into the patterns to make things easy as possible for the sewers. so they wouldn't even have to think, but just aimed things at the sewing machine and plowed through.
You look at someone who made original contract A-2s, like Dubow, who weren't principally garment makers, but made baseball gloves and golf bags, and there are so many flaws to their thinking about how to make a jacket. But they were reliable, and could turn out the jackets by the deadline, so they got the contract. Even though they didn't make the best jacket or have the most streamlined process.
I copy that sort of thing in my jackets. I see the dumb little details that may have not been the best or most elegant way to sew the jackets, but that's how they were done, and so I do that too.
I care, for instance, about which direction the seam allowances go. If you look at the little leather tabs I was telling you about at the base of the zipper, some companies would have the tab seam allowance face down, and the body seam allowance face up, where the two pieces join on the horizontal line, whereas some companies had both seam allowances facing up, so there was a big lump at the bottom of the body. I copy that, because that's the way the originals were.

Q: So it sounds like when you make a new pattern you actually have to take apart an old jacket.

A: I prefer to. That's absolutely the way I want to do it. I try to find old jackets that are so messed up that they're not going to be fixed. Like they can't be conditioned or repaired realistically. I took apart a Monarch that had moth holes which couldn't be repaired- rotten, thread going, seams falling apart. That was a perfect candidate for taking apart.
You really see some interesting things when you look at the seam allowances when you dismantle jackets. Seams were generally specified to be 3/8th of an inch, but what you really see when you take them apart were seam allowances that ranged from 3/4" to 2mm. Those sewers were payed by the garment, so they sewed VIOLENTLY. Take two pieces and have at it. "Hey, it's a little uneven…" "Yeah, I know."

Q: So some pattern makers were better at cutting for ease of sewing. What jackets have you dismantled that make you think the pattern makers were the best at this sort of practice?

A: No. 1 was Rough Wear and no. 2 was Perry Sportswear. With Perry, it was because everything was sort of round, and rounded corners are much easier to poke out than square or pointed ones. Look at Dubow, who had a very pointed collar- that's really hard to take from an inside-out assembly of two pieces and flip it to right side out and poke out the point. You'll not get the point out all the way if you don't press hard enough, and if you do press hard enough there's a good chance you could poke through the leather or seam, in which case you might have to flip it and resew it. With Perry and their rounded shapes there was much less chance of either of those things happening. It was easy as all hell to flip it and top stitch it.
And even Perry's epaulettes- there's an under piece of the epaulette which is usually cut a little shorter than the top, which provides a proper backing for it. They didn't bother cutting out the outer edge, so that they had a one-size fits all, whether you were making a 36 or a 48, the sewer used the same size epaulette, which made the assembly process easier and faster.
Rough Wear were better jacket makers, and were pattern geniuses. They made a lot of jackets for Montgomery Ward & Hercules, so had tons of experience and were very intelligent about how to streamline the process, but not by cutting corners or over-simplifying.
Then there was Osterman, another military A-2 contractor, who had horrible patterns. Their shoulders were tiny and they had a fat stomach area. Not comfortable, and dumpy looking. It's funny to see where some contractors excelled and some were just like, "dude, you need some help."

 

[YoungMedic]

Q: I hadn't realized there was so much variation in A-2 contractors.

A: It's incredible. Even through from twenty feet away they all mostly look the same.

Q: Is that part of what initially attracted you to the A-2, this kind of minute variation?

A: The A-2 is definitely my favorite jacket. I would love to be able to explain why, but I can't really. They're just so simple and cool. When I was in high school a friend told me he wanted to get a leather flight jacket, and as I had always been interested in WWII, I started looking at a lot of old WWII aviation photographs, and really fell in love with the A-2. I also really like WWII Navy jackets, and they are also as hilariously different one from another as A-2s, if not more so.

Q: How long does it take you to make a jacket, from cutting to finish?

A: The sewing time for a typical jacket is about two days (though I can make an A-2 in one day if I try). A Navy jacket tends to take 3-4 days, and sometimes a Ventura takes three days, though again, if I'm focused, it'll only take two days. For all of these, cutting up the jacket parts is by far the most focused and hard part. The sewing isn't quite as hard. No mistakes are allowed in the cutting of the jacket! The Navy jackets have so many, many parts, and all are quite detailed.

Q: When I visited you at your studio last year, you had a rack of full length fur coats in one corner of your studio.

A: Yes, that's all for the Navy jackets that have mouton collars. No one makes modern mouton like they did in the '40s. Modern stuff is too thin and wispy, or to hard and curly. The original is very even and has subtle color variations that you see if you brush it with your hand in sunlight. No modern stuff compares, that I've seen. Older stuff also holds up to moisture better. Modern versions seem to mat and curl when they get wet.
I am constantly on the lookout on eBay.

Q: Do you sell a lot of stuff to the Japanese market?

A: Oddly enough, no. I think what it is, is that the Japanese like to have things in their hands right away. My wait time is over a year and a half, and also, they tend to like to have very good communication, and I speak no Japanese.

Q: What do you look for when you are picking new patterns?

A: The number one priority is that it has to be a flattering cut. It has to make an athletic person look good. Number one priority. Then it has to be whether I find that the individual components, like the collar and pockets, are interesting to me. I do have other plans in my head, but I am always aware of the pressure to keep producing things for my clients who are waiting.

Q: You sew everything yourself right now. Do you intend at any point to train an assistant?

A: I have had interns, but it's never worked out so far, for a number of reasons. One complication is that everything is custom, so every time I make a jacket I have to explain everything I do. That makes it scary to hire somebody else. It's not just a delegation of a straightforward task when everything is custom and each contract is so different...
I am looking at having one model of Goodwear repro, an original Aero contract A-2, with no sizing or design customization, made with some assistance. If all goes as planned, that one A-2 design, in stock sizes, would take only a month or two to get into the hands of my customers. Ideally that would give me time to develop new items, like the Mojave and Arcadia that I have pictured in the GW gallery, though have not offered for sale yet. And I have other ideas that I'd like to develop, but…

(above image courtesy of John Chapman)

Q You've just introduced an A-1 model on your site. Anything you'd like to say about the design process on that?

A: That jacket is not based on an original A-1, actually. This jacket (and the SAT A-2 jacket that I offer) are totally fantasy jackets, but knowing what I do about A-2s and A-1s in construction, I can come pretty damn close in the overall effect that it should have. My A-1 is based on a Star Sportswear A-2, very loosely, but I experimented on the pattern a lot to approximate a '30s fit, rather than a later WWII one, and looked at a lot of Japanese magazines that have hyper detailed shots of A-1s. Overall I feel it has the right presence when it's worn. I actually don't have a tremendous amount of love for the A-1, but I have a lot of friends who were extremely keen on the A-1, and kept asking me to make one. I finally gave in, and am happy with the result. It made me think more about some of the refinements that came around in the A-2, like the epaulettes, which were meant to protect the shoulder seam from wear by your parachute harness. I love seeing that kind of evolution, and stepping back to the A-1 made me appreciate some of those steps, and the thinking behind them, even more.