Headwinds Mfg. Status?

stanier

Well-Known Member
Oh wow, it's kind of clear what's been happening now. Dissapointing and sad all round, and I suspect routed in the best of intentions at Headwind but now out of control. And when a very nice guy like b-man2 gets caught out, it's going to spiral. I suggest some private messaging Jay to b-man2 and smithy or this thread I suspect risks going haywire. Just a thought and I only posted as I see this heading one way, and kind of feel that stepping away from the heat of the thread, you didn't mean it to end up like this.
 

jeremiah

Well-Known Member
Well said stanier.
I get it too as a very small scale leather worker. Soon as an order is in I am using the money to grab more supplies.
problem with small outfits is that there really isn’t much wiggle room for bad times.
one name comes to mind.
steve delk and the adventurebilt disaster.
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
Jay I stuck up for you guys a couple of years back when some of the bigger boys were taking pot shots at you.

You always seemed to be trying to make nice jackets and respond to what people wanted.

However what you have done here is completely wrong. The fact that you still, stupidly, try to defend it makes it even worse.

Everyone makes mistakes but it's how you deal with those mistakes which sets you apart.

How you have behaved with this is an utter disgrace and you should be ashamed of yourself because of it. What you have done through this is make your company appear, immoral, money-grabbing and totally without customer care.

I would never, ever purchase a jacket from Headwind after what you have done and demonstrated in this thread.

All you have shown through your actions in this thread is that you are a company without any morals or commitment to your customers or any commitment to legal and moral boundaries.
 

Skyhawk

Well-Known Member
No you have it all wrong. I already said that the emails support what I was saying. I did try to refund but a case was already filed with his credit card, so my refund got returned to me and I got charged the fees.

I thnk it is common knowledge that personal emails should be not posted without the consent of the person who wrote them. I am not avoiding "evidence" but am am saying that is just plain wrong.

I have stated my position on this in my last few posts. I am not going to go over and over the same points.
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
No you have it all wrong. I already said that the emails support what I was saying. I did try to refund but a case was already filed with his credit card, so my refund got returned to me and I got charged the fees.

I thnk it is common knowledge that personal emails should be not posted without the consent of the person who wrote them. I am not avoiding "evidence" but am am saying that is just plain wrong.

I have stated my position on this in my last few posts. I am not going to go over and over the same points.
You're trying to squirm your way out of this.

You fucked up. You didn't deliver a jacket that you promised to make to a certain specification on time.

After months and months someone via your messaging system then proceeded to send an erroneous (and highly illegal) message saying that a refund had been sent when it hadn't. This message could not be a mistake but was made with deliberate intent - this in most countries is considered illegal and a form or fraudulence.

I don't live in the US but I imagine any lawyer within the US would have very little problem of establishing a case for litigation here.

Depending on where you live, the falsification of documentation relating to the repayment of funds also lies on the border of criminal action.
 

Skyhawk

Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? I would just let it go but those are lofty and inaccurate statements.
1. I already said the jacket took too long. Not uncommon in this industry, yes, but you are correct in it taking longer than promised.
No squirming and I already stated this before.

2. I never said I sent a refund. I said I would be sending a refund soon. When I did send the refund, my processing company told me that he had already filed a case with his card company. As a result I was charged $40 in fees.

Those payment documents are from my processing company, not from me. I never altered anything.
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
I'm off to bed as it's late here.

But in the meantime I'll just leave this here as this seems problematic for you Jay.


If you have a customer who hasn't received what they paid for in the time that you said they would receive it, then they have every right to be pissed off.

If you drag this process out by months longer than what they expected, then they have every right to be pissed off

If you start doing stupid things, like banning them from ordering again because of the fact they're annoyed, then they have every right to be pissed off.

When you start fiddling around with return receipts that's when customers go from being pissed off to wanting to take retribution.

Jay, if you're honestly happy with how you have responded to this then as a company you don't deserve to survive because your attitude and customer service stinks.

It's your loss though, now I'd never entertain the idea of purchasing a jacket from you after seeing your attitudes and response in this thread.
 

Micawber

Well-Known Member
Sad state of affairs and one that could easily have been avoided with better communications Jay. Burt is a friend, a pillar of this forum and as straight as they come. It reflects poorly if you aren't seen now as being contrite and bending over backwards to put things right.
 

Skyhawk

Well-Known Member
That is fine, you can choose not to order from me, but don't say I altered any receipts because I did not and would not do that. I am not sure how you got that idea. That return notice was sent when the return was initiated. Then the payment processor notified me of the charge back and the fees I would have to pay.

Some jackets have taken a long time to make, but I have never burned anyone and everyone who has ordered has either received a refund or a jacket. No fraud has occured on any of our sales.
 

bseal

Well-Known Member
As a member of the Bar, it’s not worth our time, but your point is made.

In fairness to Skyhawk, things can go very wrong in what is a tough business. I can’t wait to see updated pockets on his company’s Aviatrix, then it will be something else.
 
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Skyhawk

Well-Known Member
I am sorry that things went down that road with Burt. I have talked with him on the forums many times in the past and it was always pleasant.

When I agreed to refund his purchase, I was shocked that he went around me to file a claim with his card company before I could issue the refund. Should I have just eaten that cost without any comment or action?

The saying is "The customer is always right" but when it costs me money because they wont allow me to issue a refund, is that also "right?"
 
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Micawber

Well-Known Member
I am sorry that things went down that road with Burt. I have talked with him on the forums many times in the past and it was always pleasant.

When I agreed to refund his purchase, I was shocked that he went around me to file a claim with his card company before I could issue the refund. Should I have just eaten that cost without any comment or action?

The saying is "The customer is always right" but when it costs me money because they wont allow me to issue a refund, is that also "right?"
Yes you should have eaten the costs, maintaining customer, and potential customer goodwill is vital. The refund should have been there and then instant.
 

bseal

Well-Known Member
I’ve ordered from GW, ELC, Real McCoys, Aero, Lost World’s, US Authentic, US Wings, and wait for it... “notorious” Mark Moye.

All of them, including Mark Moye, expeditiously addressed both small and large ‘snags’ when they arose.
 

Officer Dibley

Well-Known Member
I am not seeing anything there, besides the issue of posting Private emails and PM's without my consent. But basically is is what I said it was, and if you would have let me refund your purchase as promised, you would already have your money.
No such thing as “private” emails unless bound by Classification or proprietary confidentially. Newspapers could not exist without that ability to post “private” things in public. How could Burt state his case without posting the exchanges ?
Do you refute the email content ..?
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
That is fine, you can choose not to order from me, but don't say I altered any receipts because I did not and would not do that. I am not sure how you got that idea. That return notice was sent when the return was initiated. Then the payment processor notified me of the charge back and the fees I would have to pay.

Some jackets have taken a long time to make, but I have never burned anyone and everyone who has ordered has either received a refund or a jacket. No fraud has occured on any of our sales.
Point taken about the receipt. But even leaving that aside do you still stand by the rest of your behaviour?

-Was it Burt's fault that a jacket that was quoted by you as going to be delivered in a 4 to 6 week time frame had still not been delivered after nearly half a year?

- Was it therefore OK and acceptable as a customer to go 5 to 6 months without receiving a jacket or refund?

- Was it right to issue a vindictive ban on a customer just because he had started the process of trying to get his money back? (It's worth pointing out that there's a time limit on how long you actually do this before it's deemed too long to do so). Frankly there's a lot of people who would have started the process sooner.

- The reason why this ended up costing you money and could have is because of your own problems, not Burt's. It's not his fault you never delivered the jacket. It's not his fault that because of this he became worried that he was being scammed and started to take action to protect himself. Of course he did this, who wouldn't?! The fact that there were going to be costs just demonstrates that you hadn't issued the refund when you said you would have. Once again piss poor, tardy service.

The fact that you still after all of this continue to try and worm your way out of it stinks. You can't even say sorry and own that this is your fault and not his.

Some of the worst customer service and business ethics we've seen on here in a very long time.
 

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
I am sorry that things went down that road with Burt. I have talked with him on the forums many times in the past and it was always pleasant.

When I agreed to refund his purchase, I was shocked that he went around me to file a claim with his card company before I could issue the refund. Should I have just eaten that cost without any comment or action?

The saying is "The customer is always right" but when it costs me money because they wont allow me to issue a refund, is that also "right?"
Not overly encouraging for any future customers?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I don't want to sit here to talk too much ... but a few emails and two messages were enough for me to reverse . you should start by seriously updating your site " Headwind mfg co " ... this jacket has not been available for a long time ...

38C1B484-F16A-48AF-A5D7-001F66932CA4.png
 

mulceber

Well-Known Member
I just feel bad for everybody involved in this. Burt absolutely has the right to expect the 4-6 week quote to be reasonably close to the delivery date, and he was VERY patient about getting his jacket. It also sounds like the delivery issues were things outside of Jay's control (parts of the jacket that hadn't arrived yet, etc.). More communication would probably have helped, but if the man's working a second job (at Amazon no less), I can understand why it's intermittent. It just sounds like everyone here was trying to do right by one another and it still turned into a disaster.
 
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Southoftheborder

Well-Known Member
It's all a mess but I do have sympathy for him in trying to run a small one man operation with fixed overheads and obviously cash flow problems. I would imagine it was cash flow issues that caused the delay in issuing the refund. I did buy a jacket from him once, over five years ago through eBay, when I don't think he had been going long. It took a lot longer than I was told it would and there were obvious excuses along the lines of, "the taxi is just turning into your road. I'm sorry but he was delayed by a flat tyre." But I got it in the end.

It isn't really very different from Platon and his flexible waiting times which get longer and longer; and most people here are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and don't all pile in to give him a good kicking. Though he should be more upfront about waiting times then these things wouldn't happen.
 
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