GW question

[Officer Dibley]

I’ve been on here over 20 years (not with same username). I’ve owned over 20 Eastman A-2’s, a Sefton, 8 GW’s, a DD, a BK & a 5-Star. I currently only have the ELC I bought from Steve recently. I guess that proves i’m not a collector and perhaps that i have still yet to find a jacket worth keeping long term.
GW are deemed THE premier maker. What visual evidence puts them at the top ?
Below are some photos of a GW on ebay right now. When i look at it i see the same quality as any of the other makers but no more. So, other than that JC does specific maker clones, (spoiled IMHO by doing custom sizes) there really is nothing to my eyes that makes his work better than anyone else’s.
Someone please educate me. The goat Doniger on its’ way to Alex, whilst a lovely jacket, was no better than the goat jackets i had from ELC going back many years.

I could post lots of pics from other makers but this thread would get very pic heavy.

 

[Mr. Mike]

As mentioned in my other thread I personally did not have a real life example in hands and also second your view on modifying the original sizing (yet another landmark of an authentic reproduction of an original). What is very often mentioned in various comments is that GW still apply a thicker hides more comparable to wartime originals. With horsehide jackets I think you often can see that even on photos if you compare it to other makers. But ultimately it is difficult to say given a production line of single unique examples.

 

[Micawber]

The jacket you bought off me recently is THE one you have been striving for all along Dave, that is it, that is your Holy Grail.

You have already reached Nirvana, you just needed someone to tell you

Be at peace friend

 

[Brettafett]

Totally agree Mr Dibly

Theres a rung at the top of the high end maker market, upon which sits GW, ELC, BK, Platon, and possibly a couple of others.
Each offering their own unique 'take' on original flight jackets in their possession.
Each working damn hard to replicate and clone as much detailing as possible
Each working at great expense to replicate, source NOS and often develop materials for these jackets
Each offering high quality workmanship, materials and passion
Each offering a product as close as you can get to an original
(Customer service varies lol)

Taking into account many factors...
You'll find one or more of the above that works for you
You'll also likely find one or more dont quite work for you
There are pros and cons to each for sure

But, I cant see how any one of the above is better or less better than any of the others.
ALL of these are clearly better than everything else that sits below.

If you compare one jacket, from one of the above makers, with another from one of the other makers... Then you cant just say this maker is better our worse than another
So much depends... on the batch of leather that was used in that run, materials available, were they made around the same time frame or years apart, the customers personal requests, etc

If you take an older ELC from 2004 and compare with a 2010 GW, there'll be a world of difference.
Same if you take a very 'orange' shinki russet GW from 2015 (never seen any original looking like this) and compare it to a seal brown Liberty BK from 2019 (seen many originals looking this)....
Its all rather relative and subjective.

 

[Mr. Mike]

so what's your favorite?

 

[Brettafett]

I have a few favourites...

My seal Dubow from Platon is something very special (if he made these in long, I'd get a russet in a heartbeat)
I have a BK RW23380 (perfection) and a Dubow in seal Liberty (almost perfect, wish I'd got the mid brown knit and stitching) that are firm favourites
And recently a russet ELC Monarch that is different enough from the above to be another favourite (although I don't like ELC's knits much)
This jacket does not fit as perfect as the above, but its not far off and will wear in over time.

Funnily enough, one of the jackets that gets the most wear is an AVI LTHR 'Bronco" from 2019, its certainly not at the same level of authenticity and detailing as the above, but its not miles off.
Its so comfortable and easy to wear. Had the knit swopped out, which makes it much better. The seal goat on this jacket, appears almost identical to an original, FO M-422a I owned a while back.

Im still keen on a russet BK, and also watching out for Headwind's Knopf 18246 with keen interest (my first GW was a Knopf 18246).
Aero's 16160 and the new tea core HH looks nice also.
Tempted to try a Fivestar's Dubow, which looks really nice, and AVI LTHR seems to be re-entering the market this year with multiple jackets (A-2s, G-1s and M-422as....)
Take your pic

 

[Brettafett]

If I were to look to another GW, and this is personal thing... Id be looking at a Monarch (I had one, but it was a touch big, and the back a touch short), a Dubow 20960 or a Bronco.
Maybe an early contract Werber. Ideally something a bit different to what I already have.

John's Monarchs are fantastic and he is the only person who can make an accurate Bronco.
(BK/ Platon have patterns for a Dubow 20960 I think.... In fact, Im sure they have a few unreleased contracts, that they have originals of/ patterns for, in their collection)

 

[Officer Dibley]

Back to my original point, why a GW if it looks only as good as most other makers to the human eyeball mark 1 ?

 

[Micawber]

Back to my original point, why a GW if it looks only as good as most other makers to the human eyeball mark 1 ?

Snob factor?

 

[foster]

When it comes to GW, what I find is that it is the details that are subtle, or beneath the surface. Some of the differences are not really apparent until the jacket starts getting broken in. Most people will never notice, and will not care about these differences. Personally, I find them fascinating as I have a background in textiles and my wife has her background in apparel design. If you know what a seam allowance is, or what a stabilizing tape does, then the GW jackets are where you will find these details - details which aren't always apparent when the jacket is new.

These nuances are often specific to one contractor. This goes beyond the hide, or the collar shape or pocket flap curvature, or any other such easily noticed details. You have to feel the thickness of the seams, and see how much leather extends on the inside where it is not visible. Most modern garment production has a standard seam allowance of 1/2" which is based on fabric garment production. But the 1/2" is a rarity in original A-2 jackets, and leather doesn't need that much of a seam allowance. In some places this is 3/8" or 1/4" in originals. Small difference that is insignificant to most, but I can see and tell when an A-2 is made with this extra amount on the inside, especially as it breaks in. I really liked the hide in my last ELC A-2, but the way the seams looked as it broke in was a distraction for me.

Now I don't expect others to notice this sort of thing. But once I notice it, then I can't unsee it. I'm not trying to be a snob at all, OCD is a more accurate diagnosis in my case. With my background in textiles and apparel, I can see it the way a building contractor would notice shutters that are too large for the windows on the front of a house.

 

[B-Man2]

Dave ....Excellent discussion thread !.
I think a lot of what jacket you like and which jacket is the best, has to do simply with your perception and personal preferences, which develop over a time line of years and the ownership of several different jackets . For example , I’m a GW guy . No secret .. I’ve said it many times here. My perception is, of all the makers, JC makes the best jackets. Now, how I got to this point is a long and costly story that would be boring to tell. So here’s the short version . Like Dave and Bretta
I’ve owned a number of different jackets over a 37 year period of time . Literally every jacket that was available , I won’t name them all but you guys know the names . Like Dave and Bretta I wore them for a while and sold them off .. at a loss as most of us do . That’s the costly part of the story. After many years and once I went through the “Process” is what I like to call it , Around 2009 I realized that of all the jackets I tried over the years , GWs were the best for me , in terms of quality , fit, looks , and period accuracy . The important parts of the story are, there was a timeline of many years of trial and error , and there were many jackets that passed through my hands that were the latest and greatest of that time. It was a costly “process”, and I found what worked best for me or in other words I found my perception of what worked best for me . Add to the mix that GWs are more easily obtained and less costly if you live in the US and the fact that John Chapman is one of the nicest guys, you’d ever want to meet and that’s what did it for me . If I lived in the UK I might have been an ELC guy, but I hear Gary Eastman has a little different personality that JC does . Now let me dispel the “Snob Factor”. I really don’t think that I’ve got an ounce of snob in me, because I still own and wear jackets from most of the makers you guys don’t consider as being on par with the top level makers . I wear them with the same enthusiasm as I do a GW. So that’s my 2 cents worth . The bottom line is over time you find something that meets all of your expectations and that you like . If it happens to be an AVI that’s great . If it happens to be a GW, Aero or ELC , start mortgaging the house !

 

[Nickb123]

Back to my original point, why a GW if it looks only as good as most other makers to the human eyeball mark 1 ?

Idk. I usually can tell if it’s a GW. Actually GW vs DD are harder for me to discern. Eastmans are rad and much love to them and BK but they seem slightly off, as do BKs. Off to what standard I don’t know. They have some elements that look “constructed” such as collars or whatnot where they can look incomplete. Take the GW RW collars for instance, just pure art. The Eastmans can be a bit spacey...Doesn’t mean one is better than the othe( I just blew a bunch of cash towards a new ELC. Of course there are exceptions. I’ve seen GWs that don’t jump at me either. I love my GW M422 but I think it’s a lousy cut (for me) to be honest.

Someone here mentioned the side curvature or whatnot of the body that GW seems to only really get. I’d agree with that. That’s another feature that makes GW cool. Not better but cool. Not comparing to originals; rather, my mind’s point of evaluation. Grant’s ELCs here look super great and original I must say. Also, GW stitching is so good it really goes beyond period accurate. You could argue that as a detractor.

 

[Officer Dibley]

I agree Burt that the quality of modern A-2’s is way superior to period made ones.

I understand that people have loyalties based on knowing a maker personally, have a preference for a type of hide etc but when you hold up different makers jackets, I personally don’t see a difference. Forget price, forget waiting lists, forget a preference for a specific maker and think in terms of like for like quality.
To me, if you had 6 jackets from different makers, all on hangers on a wall next to each other, my choice would be character of hide and colour because all other things seem equal to me.
Maybe i am alone in this.....

 

[B-Man2]

I agree Burt that the quality of modern A-2’s is way superior to period made ones.

I understand that people have loyalties based on knowing a maker personally, have a preference for a type of hide etc but when you hold up different makers jackets, I personally don’t see a difference. Forget price, forget waiting lists, forget a preference for a specific maker and think in terms of like for like quality.
To me, if you had 6 jackets from different makers, all on hangers on a wall next to each other, my choice would be character of hide and colour because all other things seem equal to me.
Maybe i am alone in this.....

Not at all, I think you’re spot on Dave . Utilizing all of criteria you mentioned and everything being “equal” ( I’ll touch on the equal part shortly ) then the look and esthetics of which jacket you would pick out of those 6, would certainly be a key factor in your perception of which jacket was the best for you . And as long as it fit you the way you like it to fit , you’d be very happy with that jacket independent of who made it . But let’s consider the “equal” part of this discussion. There are some guys (me included ) who not only want the jacket to look good, but also want it to be the most accurately constructed repro A2 that is available today . As you well know, there are some guys who are so focused on this point, that they want the stitch count per inch to be the same on a repro as the originals . ( Not me included) And it goes on and on from there. So “equal” means different things to different people . When you start measuring and comparing the differences between 2 and 3 mm thickness of the hide, the x stitching on the hanger bar and the font and detail on the label , you move out of the discussion we are having here and go into a different group of jacket guys .
To that group, all of the areas that I just mentioned are as important, and are a part of the visual esthetics of a jacket, as the color and the character of the hide are to you.
So in the end it simply comes down to personal preference and the perception of what’s important to that particular buyer.
At least that’s my take on this.
Your thoughts?

 

[MikeyB-17]

I’ve never owned a Goodwear, never even seen one for that matter, I can only go on what I’ve heard on this and other forums over a good few years, that JC goes the extra mile in reproducing as accurately as possible a wartime jacket. For years the debate raged on forums that it was impossible to recreate a wartime jacket, anyone who pointed out that x or y jacket was lacking in whatever respect was accused of nitpicking, and the oft-heard cry of ‘if you want original, buy original!’ went up. Then JC and Goodwear came along, and people were saying that here was ‘1942 in a box’ and that John really had done it and proved that a higher level of accuracy was possible. He did the little details that other makers didn’t.
I recall an incident several years ago-a chap turned up here from the Fedora Lounge, and one day asserted that because construction of WWII jackets was ‘all over the place’, therefore his ELC was as accurate as a Goodwear. He would not be told otherwise by anyone, even the likes of Andrew Swatland. At one point, Rotenhahn got his ban temporarily lifted so he could have his two penn’orth-he said that he had made it his business to study Rough Wear jackets for many years, and knew a lot about their nuances, and he said that Goodwear got it ‘scarily close’, whereas ELC tended to make a generic ‘ELC’ shaped body, irrespective of contract, and just add contract-specific details like epaulettes and pocket flaps. How true that is, or whether they’ve upped their game since, I know not.
Eventually, when he couldn’t get anyone to subscribe to his theory, said chap called everybody here ‘smug’ and stormed off back to Lidsville, never to be heard from again.
As I said, I was a bit reluctant to pitch in here due to my lack of hands-on Goodwear experience, but it’s always been my understanding that if you want it as close to WWII as possible, John is your boy-if that important to you.

 

[Kermit3D]

Snob factor?

And this ? Isn't it snob ?

R.A.F. IRVIN FLIGHT JACKET

The Real McCoy's reproduce products using methods and machinery of the past. For a successful reproduction, these garments require the sensitive minds of the detail-oriented Japanese craftsmen on every procedure.

therealmccoys.com

 

[Micawber]

And this ? Isn't it snob ?

R.A.F. IRVIN FLIGHT JACKET

The Real McCoy's reproduce products using methods and machinery of the past. For a successful reproduction, these garments require the sensitive minds of the detail-oriented Japanese craftsmen on every procedure.

therealmccoys.com

Ah, it's not all about money

 

[Smithy]

I agree Burt that the quality of modern A-2’s is way superior to period made ones.

I understand that people have loyalties based on knowing a maker personally, have a preference for a type of hide etc but when you hold up different makers jackets, I personally don’t see a difference. Forget price, forget waiting lists, forget a preference for a specific maker and think in terms of like for like quality.
To me, if you had 6 jackets from different makers, all on hangers on a wall next to each other, my choice would be character of hide and colour because all other things seem equal to me.
Maybe i am alone in this.....

I'm no A-2 expert but all the original ones we have at the museum here and that I got to handle were pretty shoddily put together. One of the most noticeable things was on each jacket was how the pockets were out of alignment. One pocket was roughly half an inch higher on each jacket. Along with that the stitching was out of whack in a lot of places and another very noticeable thing was how the snap alignment was also out of alignment.

 

[bseal]

Q: “GW are deemed THE premier maker. What visual evidence puts them at the top ?”

A: With the lone exception of the GWLCC’s A-1 offering, ALL of their patterns have been
meticulously, painstakingly and fervently reproduced from rare, deconstructed originals, for lack of a better term, reverse engineered. The pattern is the jacket. All other manufacturers currently miss various details from the originals. GWLCC will very likely continue to be considered the premier maker until the competitors catch up.

 

[ausreenactor]

Totally agree Mr Dibly

Theres a rung at the top of the high end maker market, upon which sits GW, ELC, BK, Platon, and possibly a couple of others.
Each offering their own unique 'take' on original flight jackets in their possession.
Each working damn hard to replicate and clone as much detailing as possible
Each working at great expense to replicate, source NOS and often develop materials for these jackets
Each offering high quality workmanship, materials and passion
Each offering a product as close as you can get to an original
(Customer service varies lol)

Taking into account many factors...
You'll find one or more of the above that works for you
You'll also likely find one or more dont quite work for you
There are pros and cons to each for sure

But, I cant see how any one of the above is better or less better than any of the others.
ALL of these are clearly better than everything else that sits below.

If you compare one jacket, from one of the above makers, with another from one of the other makers... Then you cant just say this maker is better our worse than another
So much depends... on the batch of leather that was used in that run, materials available, were they made around the same time frame or years apart, the customers personal requests, etc

If you take an older ELC from 2004 and compare with a 2010 GW, there'll be a world of difference.
Same if you take a very 'orange' shinki russet GW from 2015 (never seen any original looking like this) and compare it to a seal brown Liberty BK from 2019 (seen many originals looking this)....
Its all rather relative and subjective.

Good call!