French cyclist jacket (Hartmann jacket) by Pilot

Pilot

Well-Known Member
Buse is one of the finest, all his watches are top and granted / serviced with a warranty!.. Highly recommended!
 
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Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately not within my reach, but how beautiful it is!
It is also useful to learn to recognize watches in their original state.
 

Enigma1938

Active Member
If you find a legit WW2 original B-Watch for only 5000 -6000 Euro please buy it ..... its an investment :)...( dont get trapped in the Crapola Bay lures... only con-junk there...).
The legit ones are 8000, to 30-240K,— (the last for a B-Watch from Lange & S. or IWC).
Here a bit of sampling... none is 100% legit... but it gives a bit of a reference..
A marvelous condition is not necessary for me because like I mentioned I can do a watch restauration by myself. That's why i don't have to look at the highest price level
 

Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
@Pilot :
I just saw this post where you present one of your Hartmann jackets. The leather seems to be exactly the same as on mine, am I wrong ?
You talk about "japanese shinki HH", is this the leather used to make my jacket ?
What is "japanese shinki HH" ?

I find the leather so beautiful...
I am incredibly lucky to have caught this jacket ! I find myself a little ridiculous to love a piece of clothing so much, but I'll take it ! :rolleyes::D
 
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Bombing IP

Well-Known Member
Pilot I have become very interested in the Cycliste jacket ,could you educate us in its little nuances of what was typical for the period .For example zip makes ,the linings of the body and the sleeves ,the buckles that were used and the cut and the styles .I understand the jacket were made in linen and leather both in black and brown . Which color was the most popular ,as all photos were black and white of the period and everything looks black ? . I know alot about many other types of jackets but very little about the venerable Cycliste Jacket . I find it very strange that there is only one maker of this very famous French jacket and he is about to retire ,why no others in France .This is strange because his order book is full he does not advertise and only has an email and telephone # . Like the worlds best kept secret squirreling away at backed up orders ,and retro is so in and has been for the last twenty years .

BIP
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
3357am9.jpg

En illustration, une photographie de la section motocycliste de la 58ème DBAF dans les Alpes au printemps 1940. Ces Alpins portent les mêmes effets que celle illustrant les Tirailleurs : Blouson civil identique et veste en cuir Modèle 1920.

In illustration, a photograph of the motorcycle section of the 58th DBAF in the Alps in the spring of 1940. These Alpins wear the same effects as the one illustrating the Tirailleurs: Identical civilian jacket and model 1920 leather jacket.
 

Pilot

Well-Known Member
Pilot I have become very interested in the Cycliste jacket ,could you educate us in its little nuances of what was typical for the period .For example zip makes ,the linings of the body and the sleeves ,the buckles that were used and the cut and the styles .I understand the jacket were made in linen and leather both in black and brown . Which color was the most popular ,as all photos were black and white of the period and everything looks black ? . I know alot about many other types of jackets but very little about the venerable Cycliste Jacket . I find it very strange that there is only one maker of this very famous French jacket and he is about to retire ,why no others in France .This is strange because his order book is full he does not advertise and only has an email and telephone # . Like the worlds best kept secret squirreling away at backed up orders ,and retro is so in and has been for the last twenty years .

BIP
Many thanks for your interest.
Happy to make you one.
Conditions and reference photos shown/known ( also in) several posts earlier.
(Thx. to all, for their photos and likes).
Happy to receive your order, measurements and discussing technical details via pm.
As already mentioned, please be kindly informed: delivery time is now precisely at 6 months, after received payment.
Shipping only via courier service, no more postal.
Thx. and greetings to all, stay healthy and be safe.
Brice
 
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Bombing IP

Well-Known Member
Not the reply I expected ,I shall carry on with my own research into the cycliste jacket and you can keep hawking for more orders .

BIP
 
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Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
Great photos dinomartino1 ! thanks a lot ! if you have others don't hesitate to share them.

This type of jacket seemed to be very fashionable in the 1930s-40s.
It's amazing to see how several jacket manufacturers made a very similar product, which all had the same characteristics :
- 2 zip pockets at the top
- 2 bottom button pockets
- a metal buckle in front
- a wool lining
- the same pattern for the leather pieces
-...

The same happened for a certain type of watch (pilot watches) as mentioned earlier in this post. All of them had the same characteristics, but made by different brands.
https://www.onthedash.com/pics/KK9pilots.jpg

I am also curious to learn more about the history of the French cyclist jacket.
From what I understand, it was a jacket used by workers, probably relatively cheap. I don't think it was a luxury product in the 30s and 40s.
Am I wrong?
 

Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
Pilot I have become very interested in the Cycliste jacket ,could you educate us in its little nuances of what was typical for the period .For example zip makes ,the linings of the body and the sleeves ,the buckles that were used and the cut and the styles .I understand the jacket were made in linen and leather both in black and brown . Which color was the most popular ,as all photos were black and white of the period and everything looks black ? . I know alot about many other types of jackets but very little about the venerable Cycliste Jacket . I find it very strange that there is only one maker of this very famous French jacket and he is about to retire ,why no others in France .This is strange because his order book is full he does not advertise and only has an email and telephone # . Like the worlds best kept secret squirreling away at backed up orders ,and retro is so in and has been for the last twenty years .

BIP
It seems to me that cycling jackets have never existed in black leather, only shades of brown. I am curious to know what type of leather was used, it seems to me that it was mainly cowhide, maybe more rarely horse? goat?

I saw different types of buckles, but all very similar. The general shape is the same, only the decorative design changes (always art deco inspired).

As you say, it's amazing but this jacket that was so popular in the 30-40's, seems to have suddenly fallen into oblivion.
I have a theory about this: Did the fact that it was worn by some luftwaffe pilots put a brake on this popularity?
I've noticed that when people see my jacket, they are convinced that it is a pilot's jacket (without however associating it with the luftwaffe) whereas it is a civilian jacket.

As for the jackets that Pilot sells, I think they are the only ones of this type on the market. ELC sells the "Hartmann", but in my humble opinion it is not as legitimate.
I think that if Pilot had a nice and well referenced website to sell his jackets, there would be a lot of demand ! But it's his choice, he probably has his reasons. ;)
 

Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
I think it's a pity that this jacket is too often associated only with the luftwaffe. It is undeniably part of its history (certainly exciting), but many brands (ELC, Noble house, ...) sell it as a German jacket.
Maybe it's good for business ? but it's not a tribute to the rich history of this jacket.
 

Bombing IP

Well-Known Member
Kermit I think you bring up some valid points and to a degree you would be correct .I think also that close fit and short jackets have fallen out of favor for the last fifty years . We are now moving in a direction of tight fitting jackets suits and such .Fifty years = three generations who has no idea about past history. I doubt they would even know what a Luftwaffe something was .Photography has left us with the impression that all these jacket were black and the name of the jacket is that of a German pilot thank you Eastman Leather .The truth is that this jacket is a gem of classic style that was so prominent during the period it was used for working clothes in cotton motor cycle jackets cycling jackets . And came in many materials and colors ,why it fell out of favor its hard to say may be France just wanted a break for something different .This would have been the decision of the fashion houses at the time being replaced with the lust for American fashion style for the younger people circa 1950s and on that never left the scene .
bip
 

Saint-ex

Well-Known Member
Fashion is all about waves. When something works, everyone produces this same thing.
This is true today and it always was.

I think that this style was indeed the pre-war style and the youth of the years that followed wanted something else.
Young people all wanted jeans. My father who grew up in the 50's told me about the adventure it was to find Levis. No one wanted classic old-fashioned pants.

Even if the fashion is returning to high pants, such short jackets still seem to be in step with the market, for men anyway.
But isn't that the cool thing to have class without following the fashion market?

What makes me laugh now in Paris is all these young people who wear work clothes, literally chore jackets, the ones my grandfather wore permanently. :D
 

Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
I think you're both right. It's probably because this jacket simply went out of fashion in the 1950s.
GI clothing (and lifestyle) certainly had a lot of influence on post-war fashion. ;)


- French cyclist jacket => red wine (or maybe more an Alsatian white wine : Gewurztraminer)
- A2 jacket => Coca-Cola / Ketchup

... :p;)
 
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B-Man2

Well-Known Member
I hope you guys don’t mind if I jump into the middle of your conversation . I saw somewhere in this posting where it was asked why others in France hadn’t picked up on this cyclist jacket and started to make accurate repros of the jacket . I don’t think anyone responded to that question and I asked myself the same thing . Of all the skilled tailors and leather manufacturers in a place like France, the fashion capital of the world , why was there only one person making accurate repros of this jacket? Can that be possible ? Not withstanding that Pilot was intelligent enough to pick up on that point , can it be that a jacket this prominent during the war years in France is now lost forever, in the county that developed the jacket ??....... just wondering why or how that could happen .
 

Kermit3D

Well-Known Member
Everyone is welcome to join in this conversation with great pleasure. :)

I have been looking for this kind of jacket for a very long time. For me it was only Eastman who had a correct jacket... (we will not talk about Noble House). Then I discovered the jackets that Pilot sells.
I searched the internet as much as I could, I never found anything else.
 
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