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ELCs New Combat Combat Collection.

Smithy

Well-Known Member
Whatever you think about ELC's pricing, with this new "range" is nobody else laughing/shaking their heads/just plain bamboozled about the irony of charging over 300 quid for a pair of reproduction trousers where the originals were knocked out as a sturdy, utilitarian, pair of combat trousers and at a cheap price point. I'm not convinced by trying to turn a pair of combat strides into a luxury item and whether it's really going to catch on gangbusters in the current economic climate.
 

stanier

Well-Known Member
Whatever you think about ELC's pricing, with this new "range" is nobody else laughing/shaking their heads/just plain bamboozled about the irony of charging over 300 quid for a pair of reproduction trousers where the originals were knocked out as a sturdy, utilitarian, pair of combat trousers and at a cheap price point. I'm not convinced by trying to turn a pair of combat strides into a luxury item and whether it's really going to catch on gangbusters in the current economic climate.
They certainly are an example of where the margin must be unbelievably good for elc. And I bet they sell too. Some people I suspect just buy into the whole elc lifestyle piece. I don't understand that approach but they do.
 

Officer Dibley

Well-Known Member
During the price increases of 2017/2018 I posted some info comparing the price increase for a 1940 Pattern from August 2007 (when I bought mine new from them) to the price in December 2017. The price was a 84% increase. An ELC house HH A-2 in the same period had gone from £387 to £750 which was a 94% increase.

But don't stop there, for example that ELC house HH A-2 has increased from when I did that in December 2017 to today from £750 to £950, so an increase of 27% in that short period.

Rip-off merchants.

No-one better at data than you Tim. I mean that in a very good way BTW

Dave
 

Officer Dibley

Well-Known Member
Don't be silly Couchy, no it's not, it's an opinion.

I do think they're a rip-off and a very big one at that. You don't think they're a rip-off and that's an opinion that you're entirely entitled to just as I am entitled to think that they are. It's subjective judgment.

As I mentioned above you're one of those fans of the brand that will gladly pay what they're asking if it's something you really like and want. Nothing wrong with that at all. What this thread though shows is that for what seems to be a growing number of members here, what they are asking for their products is now too much.

I guess someone who could be bothered could look up Eastmans tax records, turnover etc at Companies House. Alas, i am not that person ;)
 

Officer Dibley

Well-Known Member
Also, one other thing I forgot to mention.

A Canda Goose jacket will set you back £1000 and it is made of goose feathers and probably nylon.

Given the choice, I will happily pay £1000 for a horse hide leather jacket rather than a nylon jacket.

When you buy a Canada Goose jacket, you are paying for the brand. When you buy an ELC or BK jacket, you are paying for the materials and the workmanship.

You make a great point but it could be argued that the jacket’s robustness is dictated by its’ most vulnerable component. Linings & knits on an A-2, especially ELC knits, is not much different to the material on a Canada Goose parka. I have one that did years Down South, has been repaired many times by previous owners and myself and it still very wearable.

Dave
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
No-one better at data than you Tim. I mean that in a very good way BTW

Dave

Thanks Dave!

At the time I did that comparison back in 2017 I also looked at the percentage increase in a Bentley Continental GT over the same period. Yes it's a car rather than a leather jacket but I used it because luxury performance cars have some of the highest price increase of luxury goods in terms of percentage increase over time - they defy a lot of other market factors.

So there was a 94% increase on a ELC HH house A2 in that period, the Bentley over the same period? Just 16%. Make of that what you will. I know what it tells me though ;-)
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
You make a great point but it could be argued that the jacket’s robustness is dictated by its’ most vulnerable component. Linings & knits on an A-2, especially ELC knits, is not much different to the material on a Canada Goose parka. I have one that did years Down South, has been repaired many times by previous owners and myself and it still very wearable.

Dave

Spot on mate.

When you actually handle a Canada Goose and use it in the conditions in which it was intended it's a genius piece of engineering, even all the little bits and details, pocket fastenings and arrangement - the double handwarmers depending on ambient temperature, wire hood to adjust against wind, etc. They are worth every cent/penny, and as I mentioned earlier, there's very few jackets that come with a lifetime warranty.

Oh and for MrBlue, they aren't made of nylon.
 

ties70

Well-Known Member
Just received the newsletter for ELC's new Lofgren distribution website.

I would not dare to dispute the quality of these boots and shoes. They look really well-made and show superb craftmanship...

But, please, can somebody enlighten me....seriously, I am asking:

What is the actual difference in quality between my Italian made Astorflex Desert Boot for 125 GBP and Lofgren's version for 375 GBP?
I see, there is a thicker leather midsole, so would this make a difference of 250 GBP?

Is a Lofgren Moc Toe for 670 GBP really a more than 2x better construction and material than my 1907 RW boot, which stands tough for almost 15 years now and has been resoled at least 4 times?

In which aspects would Lofgren Monkey boots for 670 GBP be far superior to my Thorogood 1892 horsehide Roofers?

We are not comparing budget, slave-work with Japanese craftmanship.
The above mentioned boots have been made in the US or in the EU... If you believe Wikipedia the median average income (2017) in Japan was slightly higher than in Italy, but significantly lower than in the US. So labour costs could not explain the prices of Lofgren's boots. Research? Don't think so, as the designs are pretty common.

Leaves only materials.... What are they made from? Kobe?

Ties
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
Ties - and whilst I know there are still guys around here who think ELC pricing is normal - for the rest of us ELC seem to have either lost the plot or have an enormous market of cashed up people especially in the Far East to snap all this stuff up.

Over the last couple of years I was shocked by their pricing but this new Combat Collection and all the other bits are just so overpriced you'd almost think it was an April Fool's joke.

The boots are the same. They're charging made to measure prices for stuff "off the rack".

They've become 1st class rip-off merchants AFAIC, and a pack of greedy "let's rip our customers off" wankers.
 

ties70

Well-Known Member
Tim,

the reason why I was asking, is rooted in the start of the discussion a few days ago. Some said "rip-off", others said "because they can", some mentioned "clever marketing", and some praised the quality...

...that discussion was pretty theoretical for me, as I do not know that much about combat gear and uniforms.

But I got the point: A japanese-made, researched, 100% authentic fabric garment has to be more expensive (which is justified) than a chinese-made "look-a-like" of a combat pant / shirt / jacket... If the full differences in prices are justified? I do not know...

For boots, on the other hand, I simply do not get these differences at all, as I know the quality of my RW and the like. I have a pair of White's boots, which cost me a fortune, and their quality is astonishing. The Lofgren's prices are higher, though.

I know, you could spend even more for boots, but then I would expect them to be made for me....not made from my personal last, but at least made on a last that comes as close as possible.

I simply do not see that added value in the ELC products.

Probably the ELC prices are a mixture of a big part of "because they can", a little bit of "better quality" and much "economy of scales" (with their relatively small production numbers, the price per pair has to be higher).

Ties
 

ties70

Well-Known Member
Maybe it’s just me, but I have a problem paying more money for a repro, than the current selling price of the original item.:oops:

Burt,

that is probably the only point I DO get somehow...

a) You pay premium for the repro, because originals are not available in your size.

b) You pay premium, because you do not want to ruin / destroy the original, as it would then be gone forever.

In that case, the psychological / emotional barrier to pay premium is lower than the psychological / emotional barrier to wear the original....it's pricy, but the premium paid-for repro can be replaced...it was "just money".

Just my "playground psychology"... ;)
 

mulceber

Moderator
Probably the ELC prices are a mixture of a big part of "because they can", a little bit of "better quality" and much "economy of scales" (with their relatively small production numbers, the price per pair has to be higher).

Good post, Ties. I’d add to that a point that (I think) Tim made a while ago: they raise prices so that they can market themselves as a luxury brand. They can make themselves attractive to a certain clientele simply BECAUSE their products are so ridiculously priced.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
Burt,

that is probably the only point I DO get somehow...

a) You pay premium for the repro, because originals are not available in your size.

b) You pay premium, because you do not want to ruin / destroy the original, as it would then be gone forever.

In that case, the psychological / emotional barrier to pay premium is lower than the psychological / emotional barrier to wear the original....it's pricy, but the premium paid-for repro can be replaced...it was "just money".

Just my "playground psychology"... ;)
Ties
Well..... those are certainly valid points I hadn’t considered. Points taken:)
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
Tim,

the reason why I was asking, is rooted in the start of the discussion a few days ago. Some said "rip-off", others said "because they can", some mentioned "clever marketing", and some praised the quality...

...that discussion was pretty theoretical for me, as I do not know that much about combat gear and uniforms.

But I got the point: A japanese-made, researched, 100% authentic fabric garment has to be more expensive (which is justified) than a chinese-made "look-a-like" of a combat pant / shirt / jacket... If the full differences in prices are justified? I do not know...

For boots, on the other hand, I simply do not get these differences at all, as I know the quality of my RW and the like. I have a pair of White's boots, which cost me a fortune, and their quality is astonishing. The Lofgren's prices are higher, though.

I know, you could spend even more for boots, but then I would expect them to be made for me....not made from my personal last, but at least made on a last that comes as close as possible.

I simply do not see that added value in the ELC products.

Probably the ELC prices are a mixture of a big part of "because they can", a little bit of "better quality" and much "economy of scales" (with their relatively small production numbers, the price per pair has to be higher).

Ties

Well said and argued Ties.

They are funny times we live in.

I think at the end of the day whether it's leather flight jackets, boots, combat trousers, etc, ELC seem to have or be hitting the absolute upper limit on what people expect to pay, at least what most people around here with the flight jacket/WWII kit crowd.

Part of me, if I'm honest is a bit sad. When I first got interested in flying jackets ELC were the top of the heap but in terms of pricing although expensive, they were still reasonable. Now they're obscenely overpriced from my perspective.

Although I absolutely love it, if my ELC Irvin packed up I'd never buy another one from them now, it'd be an Aero all the way. An ELC is £1,200. An Aero? £800 and full custom sizing.

Sadly for me ELC who were back in the day my "heroes" of the repro flying jacket world when I first got into this, have now just become for me a bunch of overcharging, greedy rip-off merchants.

What is interesting about our hobby is how the dynamics are changing, ELC charging through the roof, new crowds like Platon and 5 Star coming through. One thing is for sure I think things might look very different in a couple of years time.
 

mulceber

Moderator
Ties
Well..... those are certainly valid points I hadn’t considered. Points taken:)

Yeah, makes sense to me. Most of us will take (or leave) Goodwear prices without a fuss, even if JC’s jackets cost more than an original, because it’s simple supply and demand: if John charged Platon’s prices (for example), his wait times would be 10 years and rising. Eastman’s just making a marketing ploy and screwing their customers over in the process.
 

ties70

Well-Known Member
They can make themselves attractive to a certain clientele simply BECAUSE their products are so ridiculously priced.

And this works:

When I got my first "real" watch, an Omega Seamaster, it had a retail price of less than half of what they charge today. They got more expensive to get into the range of Rolex (which got pricier, too), and to get rid of that "You are just a glorified SWATCH subsidiary" image.
 
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