ELC is doing better than some may think

Pilot

Well-Known Member
That's true of Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc but remember that China still has a very strong authoritarian velvet fist that they aren't afraid to use over their domestic population if they think the occasion merits it. They also have an extensive and highly entrenched state propaganda system which I'd warrant would be very persuasive in discouraging support of "antagonistic foreign actors" is they chose to do so.

All of this is highly speculative but things over there could deteriorate with what happens next with the HK protest/democratic movement.
Basically agree with all...but...surely all will fade within months...also HG-KG protests...We had a similar issue with Korea and China last year..b/c of North Korea South Korea/ US policy...South Korea was almost in a direct war with China...
All faded away as soon as the press was not interested anymore and some “ Gentlemen’s agreements” settled in...
Same will happen here..if it comes to a real commercial conflict...
But yes...agree it’s somehow frightening and scary...
 

foster

Well-Known Member
Maybe soon in certain parts of China, one can buy an imitation Rolex and an imitation Eastman jacket from the same streetside vendor!
 

John Lever

Moderator
Sorry to disagree...not if you want to sell glamour and prestige...Rolex, Ferrari, RR etc... a 2000 Euro jacket...made in China...? no Asian buyers...ever...then ELC will have to market it for 1/3 of the UK price... doomed to fail IMHO.
Besides, why opening in China? as long as made in UK works and pays off?
More risks than benefits...
Apple seem to do quite well , and the worlds biggest tannery and supplier of sheepskin is in China.I understand the top brands are already using Chinese sheepskin.
 

crism1

Member
Sorry to disagree...not if you want to sell glamour and prestige...Rolex, Ferrari, RR etc... a 2000 Euro jacket...made in China...? no Asian buyers...ever...then ELC will have to market it for 1/3 of the UK price... doomed to fail IMHO.
Besides, why opening in China? as long as made in UK works and pays off?
More risks than benefits...
While the labour cost may be lower in China, if you are looking for it, you can find craftsmanship is absolutely top-notch, same as any other country. But as you pointed out, these people are just looking for the Westerner-vibes to buy prêt-à-porter.

That's true of Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc but remember that China still has a very strong authoritarian velvet fist that they aren't afraid to use over their domestic population if they think the occasion merits it. They also have an extensive and highly entrenched state propaganda system which I'd warrant would be very persuasive in discouraging support of "antagonistic foreign actors" is they chose to do so.
If you are talking about foreign import-market, China is not aiming at pushing out "antagonist foreign actors". Matter of fact China already controls HK due to the completely rigged parliament system. They are just trying, as they do from time to time, to flex muscles and let HK understand that they are in power after all. It's all in interests China to let HK be an almost-free state because it's a commercial and financial bridge between impenetrable China and the rest of the world, culturally and functionally.
 
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Smithy

Well-Known Member
China is not aiming at pushing out "antagonist foreign actors".
Good points but I didn't mean they would expel foreign business. Rather I wouldn't put it past the Chinese authorities to generate an uncomfortable and unfriendly atmosphere for a country like Britain's businesses within China if the situation seriously degenerated. That's obviously also not including temporary direct trade punishments which could be inflicted if the situation really did get nasty.

As we said this is all highly speculative and unlikely but the world is a funny place and situations and dynamics can change very rapidly.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
While the labour cost may be lower in China, if you are looking for it, you can find craftsmanship is absolutely top-notch, same as any other country. But as you pointed out, these people are just looking for the Westerner-vibes to buy prêt-à-porter.



If you are talking about foreign import-market, China is not aiming at pushing out "antagonist foreign actors". Matter of fact China already controls HK due to the completely rigged parliament system. They are just trying, as they do from time to time, to flex muscles and let HK understand that they are in power after all. It's all in interests China to let HK be an almost-free state because it's a commercial and financial bridge between impenetrable China and the rest of the world, culturally and functionally.
Based on all of your responses, I have this vision of you working for the World Bank as a financial and economic advisor to a foreign government or sitting on the board of some nations economic strategic development program . I am going to be so disappointed if you tell us your working at Walmart or Home Depot in the Plumbing department ...:confused:
 

ZuZu

Well-Known Member
Hate to be a dick (well, maybe not) but Eastmans are a bit overrated as far as repros go! They are trying REALLY hard but really they don't make great copies- more like very good artistic representations. There's a big difference- especially when worn- they look a bit generic in fit. The jackets in Catch 22 looked pretty good especially when compared with the abortions worn in Pearl Harbor but they are off the mark- something weird about the big collars and skinny foresleeves and wrinkly leather. The jackets which are "original maker" in their catalog come in a bit steep at almost $1500 IMO. The jackets all really kinda look the same- as if the details are accurate (more or less) for the contract but just stuck on to a generic body. The details ar OK- but overall it's like a fine artistic exercise.

What's funny to me is how these inaccuracies are fully on display in their catalog- check out the differences in pocket flap width- collar shape and pocket height in the 16159 Rough Wear (Virgil Hilts homage). What's truly funny is that in this one time when a 2" pocket height off the waistband is accurate Eastman DIDN"T do it! All their other RWs have pockets too high!



28016
 

ZuZu

Well-Known Member
Their Star isn't even close- look at how painfully they tried to curve the collar in the upper part of the example but in their comparison shot the curve doesn't exist. Pocket flaps are too timid- let's SEE that weird curvy shape- and finally the shoulder shape is way off- look at how clean and distinct the collar/shoulder relationship is in the original and how way off the mark the Eastman is. Just tacked on some Star details on to a generic body- it doesn't work because the Star details are very pattern dependent... look at those wide shoulders on the original...

28017


And we're back to the too high pockets...
 
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crism1

Member
Based on all of your responses, I have this vision of you working for the World Bank as a financial and economic advisor to a foreign government or sitting on the board of some nations economic strategic development program . I am going to be so disappointed if you tell us your working at Walmart or Home Depot in the Plumbing department ...:confused:
my first degree was wasted in Political Science of the International Relationships, now I'm going for Psychology o_O

Hate to be a dick (well, maybe not) but Eastmans are a bit overrated as far as repros go! They are trying REALLY hard but really they don't make great copies- more like very good artistic representations. There's a big difference- especially when worn- they look a bit generic in fit. The jackets in Catch 22 looked pretty good especially when compared with the abortions worn in Pearl Harbor but they are off the mark- something weird about the big collars and skinny foresleeves and wrinkly leather. The jackets which are "original maker" in their catalog come in a bit steep at almost $1500 IMO. The jackets all really kinda look the same- as if the details are accurate (more or less) for the contract but just stuck on to a generic body. The details ar OK- but overall it's like a fine artistic exercise.

What's funny to me is how these inaccuracies are fully on display in their catalog- check out the differences in pocket flap width- collar shape and pocket height in the 16159 Rough Wear (Virgil Hilts homage). What's truly funny is that in this one time when a 2" pocket height off the waistband is accurate Eastman DIDN"T do it! All their other RWs have pockets too high!
wasn't the yoyo jacket a Pearl Harbor Eastman? I think I read it somewhere here IIRC
 

Ken at Aero Leather

Well-Known Member
You’re not wrong Tim but perhaps that is why ELC are not increasing staff, rather letting overtime pick up the slack & letting domestic waiting times increase.
Easier said than done. Unless a factory is working on a production line system training to make perfect complete garments takes AGES and leather to learn one's craft on is expensive.
Aero are very lucky to be based in a traditional clothing manufacturing area and have a steady supply of Heriot Watt graduates 400 yards down the road dying for a proper job in the trade they've spent 4 years studying for.
Even then the sheer number of "Trainee" jackets takes a while to shift
Plus I don't think Devon has a history of clothing manufacture
 
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foster

Well-Known Member
Eastmans are a bit overrated as far as repros go! They are trying REALLY hard but really they don't make great copies- more like very good artistic representations.
I remember when Eastman was the best one could buy. Still good representative jackets, but the varieties do seem like they just change the epaulettes, zipper, collar, label, knits, and pockets and most everything else within the pattern of the body remains the same.

The visible 1/2" seam allowances throughout the garment is what I personally did not like in their A-2 jackets. You can especially see this in the epaulette, if you look. Also it becomes visible along the outside seam of the sleeve. 1/2" is a more modern standard in garments, but is not really necessary in leather. It seems originals were 1/4" to 3/8" and not usually 1/2"?

But this is speaking of the A-2 mostly. I think their B-3 is good (but I also do not have as much knowledge of those jackets to know if something is off). The B-6 is interesting but I think they market their 'original maker' B-6 as Rough Wear, whereas in actuality I think only Aero and Arnoff made the B-6? This is going off memory and mine isn't as reliable as it used to be, so I could be wrong.
 

colekwok

Active Member
The market in China is very complex. Business/politics is usually separated from the actual demand from the general consumers in China. As much as we see the on going trade war and all the resistances of their soft/sharp power, there is not a single hint that the Chinese consumers are boycotting US/Europe/Japan imports. With my good understand of the mainland Chinese culture, regardless of their superficial political stand, their desire of good quality well made foreign produces or products is unchanged. Best example is the sell-out of NBA tickets right after Adam Silver voiced out his support for the Hong Kong protest even though all government channels came out to ask their people to boycott everything NBA. Costco is also doing exceptionally well since their store opening in August, which also coincide with Trump's war with them.

Regardless of my own sour grape moments with ELC, I must say they are going towards the right direction.
 

saucerfiend

Well-Known Member
Hate to be a dick (well, maybe not) but Eastmans are a bit overrated as far as repros go! They are trying REALLY hard but really they don't make great copies- more like very good artistic representations. There's a big difference- especially when worn- they look a bit generic in fit. The jackets in Catch 22 looked pretty good especially when compared with the abortions worn in Pearl Harbor but they are off the mark- something weird about the big collars and skinny foresleeves and wrinkly leather. The jackets which are "original maker" in their catalog come in a bit steep at almost $1500 IMO. The jackets all really kinda look the same- as if the details are accurate (more or less) for the contract but just stuck on to a generic body. The details ar OK- but overall it's like a fine artistic exercise.

What's funny to me is how these inaccuracies are fully on display in their catalog- check out the differences in pocket flap width- collar shape and pocket height in the 16159 Rough Wear (Virgil Hilts homage). What's truly funny is that in this one time when a 2" pocket height off the waistband is accurate Eastman DIDN"T do it! All their other RWs have pockets too high!



View attachment 28016
I've always said Eastman's A-2 patterns are off mark. And I completely agree Jeff, in the comparison pics, it's plain to see.
Every time I've tried one, it looked ridiculous compared to a GW of the same pattern. I'll accept the wait and have one that's accurate!

Brian
 

foster

Well-Known Member
what about the jackets that are not repros of specific contracts (like the house A-2)?
I had one of those once. It was in actuality a Eastman marked copy of an Aero contract, which just made me want something that was more like a real Aero in more ways than just the basic appearance. But it was a good jacket, and is a nice A-2 for someone who does not take notice of the subtle details the way I do now.
 

CBI

Well-Known Member
at the end of the day, just very cool that many people are interested in A-2's that are in the range of being accurate as the accuracy makes for an overall better looking jacket IMO. Eastman have certainly upped their game, could they improve more, sure, I am not losing any sleep over it. Great eye candy!
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
I've actually been wondering what with all the price hikes to capture the Far East market and their increased focus on that whether Gary now doesn't really feel like going further in terms of accuracy. As a brand they seem to be now creating this idea of what 1940s Americana was without being 100% accurate to it - this kind of daydream of the US in the 1940s. You can see that in that new leather they sent to Officer Dibley and that he posted here a few months back, the stuff that I said looked like the leather on my grandparents' antique furniture. The funny thing was it doesn't look like an A-2 from the 40s, it was far, far too grainy, and did look like old furniture leather. I'm starting to wonder whether all of this is part of this playing to an idea of the past rather than to what it actually was.

In the past decade and a bit a lot of the punters talking about and buying ELC military jackets here and over at the Salon du Chapeau were WWII flying jacket nuts and the associated WWII enthusiasts and reenactors, guys where accuracy was a priority that came pretty high up the ladder. I'm starting to wonder now whether in Asia accuracy is of such paramount importance or rather whether this idea of something that could have come from the period (even if it necessarily didn't) is more important. A pastiche rather than a hyper-real copy.
 
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