Depot re-dye or depot paint ?

[Icarus]

Hi chaps, I don't post much on here but always check in from time to time over the years to see what's going on. I've searched and searched through the forum and cannot find a definitive answer to this question. . .
With A2 1943 depot re-dyes was a dye used or was an acrylic paint used ?
In my opinion a dye would soak into the leather more than a paint which would bond to the surface. This would surely affect the subsequent wear and patina. I've seen both opinions but do we actually know or were both used depending upon the depot ? The reason I ask is because I've just got hold of a second hand Eastman and want to try my hand at a depot re-dye. I don't know whether to buy acrylic leather paint or leather dye for this.

 

[mulceber]

Part of the issue with answering this question is that, according to John Chapman, there wasn't *one* way of re-dying jackets. A lot of them were just done by AAF personnel with a paintbrush or sponge and poly-acrylate dye (Eastman A-2 guide p. 99), and those aged pretty badly. Here's an example from Eastman's A-2 guide:

John Chapman @Grant, however, has said that other jackets were actually sent back to the companies that made them for re-dye. The source for this information was an employee who worked at Aero during the War, and said that they would get truckloads of jackets for refurbishment (new hardware, new lining, knits, etc.) or re-dye. And (steel yourself for this) any jackets that had squadron insignia, patches, jacket art, any sort of personalization, those jackets were simply thrown in the trash.

Here's another jacket re-dye. I like to imagine that it's one of the factory re-dyes, because it's a lighter dye color, it's MUCH better done than the above photo, and the jacket is remarkably well-preserved, instead of having the leather degrade like the previous example. But the truth is, I don't know - this could have been done at an air depot that was using a very particular dye and had a skilled guy doing them.

How do I know it's a re-dye? Look here:

 

[Silver Surfer]

I’ve handled a few 1941 rws, and dubows that were obviously redyed with great care. The dye used was the same as the original lighter russet dye used when the jackets were made. This would confirm my original theory espoused years ago, that some a-2s were indeed sent back to the makers factories early in the war. Of course we are all familiar with the depot slob jobs that were painted with what appears to be the same poly acrylic that was used on b-3s, later in the war. There are variations on the war time refits, as some originally russet jackets were redyed in seal dye, and some in seal poly. It’s easy to tell the difference between the dyed and poly painted a-2s that have survived.

 

[Icarus]

Thanks chaps, that, sort of, confirms my thoughts. Some depots used a thicker paint type acrylic which was more prone to later flaking and stripping of the underlying colour, such as Gary states in his book. Some depots used a thinner dye type which has proved more colourfast and durable. I think I'll give it go with Angelus acrylic dark brown paint and a brush and see what happens

 

[mulceber]

Thanks chaps, that, sort of, confirms my thoughts. Some depots used a thicker paint type acrylic which was more prone to later flaking and stripping of the underlying colour, such as Gary states in his book. Some depots used a thinner dye type which has proved more colourfast and durable. I think I'll give it go with Angelus acrylic dark brown paint and a brush and see what happens

Just to be cautious, I wouldn't just go out and buy some acrylic paint. Maybe talk to someone who knows leather? I'm not confident an acrylic paint is going to be the same thing as the poly-acrylate dye they used back then.

 

[Chandler]

Haven't other VFJ members re-dyed jackets?

@Micawber

 

[Micawber]

Haven't other VFJ members re-dyed jackets?

@Micawber

Yes Sir, I have, more than once.

 

[Grant]

Part of the issue with answering this question is that, according to John Chapman, there wasn't *one* way of re-dying jackets. A lot of them were just done by AAF personnel with a paintbrush or sponge and poly-acrylate dye (Eastman A-2 guide p. 99), and those aged pretty badly. Here's an example from Eastman's A-2 guide:


John Chapman, however, has said that other jackets were actually sent back to the companies that made them for re-dye. The source for this information was an employee who worked at Aero during the War, and said that they would get truckloads of jackets for refurbishment (new hardware, new lining, knits, etc.) or re-dye. And (steel yourself for this) any jackets that had squadron insignia, patches, jacket art, any sort of personalization, those jackets were simply thrown in the trash.

Here's another jacket re-dye. I like to imagine that it's one of the factory re-dyes, because it's a lighter dye color, it's MUCH better done than the above photo, and the jacket is remarkably well-preserved, instead of having the leather degrade like the previous example. But the truth is, I don't know - this could have been done at an air depot that was using a very particular dye and had a skilled guy doing them.

FWIW, that was me that had a conversation with an Aero worker who made A-2's in Beacon, NY during the war and recalled jackets being re-dyed. I'm still kicking myself I didn't record the conversation.

 

[mulceber]

FWIW, that was me that had a conversation with an Aero worker who made A-2's in Beacon, NY during the war and recalled jackets being re-dyed. I'm still kicking myself I didn't record the conversation.

Sorry, didn’t mean to misattribute that one. Correction made.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Ooops

 

[Icarus]

To the the people who have done a "depot" re-dye, what dye/paint did you use ?

 

[P-47 thunderbolt]

Don't use the cheapest fibings dye as it can come out with a green tinge. I took it back again with isopropyl alcohol and used shoe dye you get in the cobblers. This was the closest match to a redye. As it doesn't penerate much. Just like a ww2 redye. I have an original redye and I
I mixed a dark brown and a black to match. Pretty much spot on.

 

[Silver Surfer]

I have used feibings oil based dyes. they are permanent, and will not bleed or run if applied properly. best to get the feibings dye thinner, and mix it with your desired color 1/4 thinner + 3/4 dye,. by mixing your dye this way you can judge the results and reapply as needed for darker and lighter areas ala vintage look. feibings oil based brown dyes tend towards the reddish, so I have used mixed colors to get a semi seal finish.....sometimes even adding a touch of black..

 

[Micawber]

To the the people who have done a "depot" re-dye, what dye/paint did you use ?

TBH Getting a finish that you are personally happy with is not really a case of proclaiming buy this or that product, mix it this or that way or prep the leather with this and all will be spot on. A lot depends on type of leather, current finish, how worn it is and a few other variables and how to attempt let alone gain full or partial rectification if things go wrong. Experience counts so be prepared for a big chunk of trial and error. One reason I have always held back submitting an "A B C and you will end up with X Y Z" is I don't want the responsibility of someone hitting their expensive GW or ELC jacket with strong solvents and products and ending up unhappy with the results.

Experience gained through experimenting, successes and failures counts for a lot so practice with various products on scrap leather with similar finishes then try it on hidden areas of a garment first.

Just my tuppence worth.

 

[JonnyCrow]

TBH Getting a finish that you are personally happy with is not really a case of proclaiming buy this or that product, mix it this or that way or prep the leather with this and all will be spot on. A lot depends on type of leather, current finish, how worn it is and a few other variables and how to attempt let alone gain full or partial rectification if things go wrong. Experience counts so be prepared for a big chunk of trial and error. One reason I have always held back submitting an "A B C and you will end up with X Y Z" is I don't want the responsibility of someone hitting their expensive GW or ELC jacket with strong solvents and products and ending up unhappy with the results.

Experience gained through experimenting, successes and failures counts for a lot so practice with various products on scrap leather with similar finishes then try it on hidden areas of a garment first.

Just my tuppence worth.

Through leather dying in past too Steve I found veg tan and chrome tan also has a way bigger difference so I agree

 

[Chandler]

Through leather dying in past too Steve I found veg tan and chrome tan also as a way bigger difference so I agree

How about spray finished or aniline dyed?