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C-47 bag

B17b25guy

Member
Greetings from Nashville. I flew 6 or 7 different C-47' A/B models (and one C-53 - DC-3A) back in the 80's, flying freight. I think you may have meant to have written "RESCUE' with a 'C'.
 

Flightengineer

Well-Known Member
Greetings from Nashville. I flew 6 or 7 different C-47' A/B models (and one C-53 - DC-3A) back in the 80's, flying freight. I think you may have meant to have written "RESCUE' with a 'C'.
Hi, thanks for this note. I was so hurry that I didn't even notice how I made a grammatical error, I had very short in time before she must go. When she comes back I'll change the Q to C :)
I'm pleased to meet Dakota's pilot here. Despite more than 25 years in aviation, I flew this nice bird only as a passenger. Hope one day I'll fly she as a pilot ... one nice day.
 
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B17b25guy

Member
I hope you achieve your goal of flying the '3'. The DC-4 is even nicer, but I was never a fan of the R-2000 engines. I haven't flown a '3' in many years, but do still operate the same P&W 1830-92 engines on a PBY I have been operating at airshows, etc. for a museum for the past 20 yrs. in my spare time. I was just flying it (and a B-25) weekend before last, at an event at the museum in Virginia Beach.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
I hope you achieve your goal of flying the '3'. The DC-4 is even nicer, but I was never a fan of the R-2000 engines. I haven't flown a '3' in many years, but do still operate the same P&W 1830-92 engines on a PBY I have been operating at airshows, etc. for a museum for the past 20 yrs. in my spare time. I was just flying it (and a B-25) weekend before last, at an event at the museum in Virginia Beach.
Hi
Since you are relatively new here …
Having only joined in 2011….
I have to ask …. Where the hell have you been dude !! ;)
Guys like you are who we all dream of talking with … You’ve flown C-47s (DC-3s)
AND B-25s ……. And you’ve just been sitting in the wings here not saying anything ……????
Oh mate …. How cruel !!!
However …. We are kind folk here and you can redeem yourself by sharing some photos of your past adventures … Yes I think if you do that .. your past silence can be over looked … I mean hell … I’ve forgiven you already … ;)
 

Flightengineer

Well-Known Member
I hope you achieve your goal of flying the '3'. The DC-4 is even nicer, but I was never a fan of the R-2000 engines. I haven't flown a '3' in many years, but do still operate the same P&W 1830-92 engines on a PBY I have been operating at airshows, etc. for a museum for the past 20 yrs. in my spare time. I was just flying it (and a B-25) weekend before last, at an event at the museum in Virginia Beach.

This is great. I would like to ask you so many things, especially about the B-25.
I recently retired civilian pilot, still hoping to get back into the cockpit one day. I've flew heavy jets (passengers and cargo) all my life, but I'm very familiar with the Dakota and some DC-3 communities in the US and here in Europe.
Given your huge experience on the C-47, you should probably be familiar with my great friend Allen Campbell, former USMC pilot and head of the DC-3/Dakota Historical Society.

What DC-3 did you fly recently? Tell us please also about the B-25, if possible, show a photo.

Regards.
Dmitry.
 

B17b25guy

Member
Greetings all.....I tend not to hang out in forums and typically would join one to gather information about something I'm interested in learning about or acquiring. Primarily, because I don't have time. With respect to this one, I recently began receiving notifications of postings and picked up on the C-47 thread. In more recent times I visited here (and Fedora) and PM''d a member about the Eastman Fly Weight Irvin after he posted a review. I now have one. That said, I'll place my 2011 Eastman BOB Irvin (44) up somewhere before long. It's never left the house.

Airplanes....I haven't flown a DC-3 in a long time and would simply need to get recurrent (study manuals and fly in type) . I have flown six B-25's over the years. Three B-17's (Liberty Foundation's ride program. I'm one of the original pilots) , a half dozen PBY's, etc. I have been flying at The Military Aviation Museum for 20 yrs this year. While there are many clips on YT people share over the years, here's some I am familiar with.


(sadly my copilot during this one passed away from Covid last year)


(the best Cat footage starting about 6:38)


Cheers,
Bob
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
Bob
That’s outstanding . Thanks for posting those. As you can tell from our reactions, we don’t get to exchange thoughts or have conversations often with pilots who have actually “ Been there.. Done that” and you have actually done what most of us here just fantasize about . When did you first become qualified to fly the B-17 and how did that opportunity first present itself ?
Were you a pilot in the military ?
Of all of the aircraft you mentioned which one is your all time favorite to fly and which one presented the most challenges ?
Sorry for all of the questions but this is interesting stuff to most of us .
Cheers
Burt
 

B17b25guy

Member
Bob
That’s outstanding . Thanks for posting those. As you can tell from our reactions, we don’t get to exchange thoughts or have conversations often with pilots who have actually “ Been there.. Done that” and you have actually done what most of us here just fantasize about . When did you first become qualified to fly the B-17 and how did that opportunity first present itself ?
Were you a pilot in the military ?
Of all of the aircraft you mentioned which one is your all time favorite to fly and which one presented the most challenges ?
Sorry for all of the questions but this is interesting stuff to most of us .
Cheers
Burt
Hi Burt.....your review of the Aero Irvin with John Lever is what brought me back here. John was the one I PM'd about the Fly Weight. And, I love it.

No, to the military due to 20/25 eyesight at the time. I had a 'round engine' background due to career patch. Freight with Beech 18, DC-3, etc. Forestry tankers, DC-4, CL-215, and Cl-415, etc. (I'm typed in 5 large flying boats). B-17 was made available while flying B-25's on a ride program (historical flights for the public) and being in the right place at the right time with the same people. I have 2100 hrs. in three 17's.I did a lot of rides/airshows throughout US in my spare time.

All these airplanes are different with their own idiosyncrasies. One could go on for some time. One always enjoys whatever you're in at the moment. Its the challenge of flying them accurately I enjoy.

B-17 is quintessential and fun to share for that reason.I flew Liberty Belle, Movie Memphis Belle, Chuckie, Madras Maiden, Ye Olde Pub. The last three are same airframe with three different names. The 'Pub' looking spectacular. The 17 suffers from poor aileron effectiveness at slower speeds (base and final approach) and wind acts on large rudder surface area requiring upwind throttles to aid in preserving directional control. All electric gear and flaps except cowl flaps and brakes which are hydraulic. All these other airplanes mentioned are typically all hydraulic systems.

B-25 is nicest flying (except DC-4 is best of all). B-25 nosewheel casters +/- 60 deg and is challenging to taxi. Brakes are very effective and require getting used too. On departure roll, float the nose wheel at 85/90 lift off at 120 and accelerate to 160. Between 120 and 145 suffers from inadequate rudder authority to preclude resultant yaw (and subsequent roll) should a catastrophic engine failure occur. So one accelerates rapidly thru 145 (Vmc) to Vy (160) since this is area requires a power reduction in concert with full rudder an effort preclude yaw and roll should a failure occur in this speed region.

PBY(5A) was designed as a straight flying boat utilizing waterways. The landing gear is an afterthought and is archaic. I wrote a short piece in Warbirds Int'l (Nov./Dec. 2011 vol. 30. no.8) about the Military Aviation Museums PBY entitled 'From The Cockpit'. Hydrodynamically is poor on the water compared to even an Albatross, let alone the Canadiar's. Poorly harmonized controls in flight. Lightest in pitch, heavier in roll, (1400 sq. ft. of wing is a large damping moment) and very heavy about the vertical axis (yaw). When rolling into a turn, it's a long moment arm out to the centerline of induced drag of the downward deflected aileron causing significant adverse yaw requiring significant rudder pressure. But therein lies the challenge of flying it accurately. Rolling in and out of turns in airshows is hard work and can where you out quickly. Floats extended noticeably compromises aileron authority. And, when level 8 to 10 knots of speed is lost. Executing steep turns with floats extended while preserving altitude can place you close to the critical alpha.

Oh and DC-3.... The airplane has a 15.5 deg. outer panel wing sweepback causing the stall to occur at the tips and propagate inward causing loss of aileron effectiveness. Moreover, the disturbed airflow at the tips is outside the span of the horizontal stab. so no aerodynamic buffet is felt prior to the stall. Otherwise, a decent airplane.

All these old airplanes have no stall warning systems.

Thats a very quick and dirty. Thanks for the review of the Aero and Eastman lightweight Irvins!

Cheers,
Bob



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Bob on PBY Thunder over Michigan.jpg

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B-Man2

Well-Known Member
Hi Burt.....your review of the Aero Irvin with John Lever is what brought me back here. John was the one I PM'd about the Fly Weight. And, I love it.

No, to the military due to 20/25 eyesight at the time. I had a 'round engine' background due to career patch. Freight with Beech 18, DC-3, etc. Forestry tankers, DC-4, CL-215, and Cl-415, etc. (I'm typed in 5 large flying boats). B-17 was made available while flying B-25's on a ride program (historical flights for the public) and being in the right place at the right time with the same people. I have 2100 hrs. in three 17's.I did a lot of rides/airshows throughout US in my spare time.

All these airplanes are different with their own idiosyncrasies. One could go on for some time. One always enjoys whatever you're in at the moment. Its the challenge of flying them accurately I enjoy.

B-17 is quintessential and fun to share for that reason.I flew Liberty Belle, Movie Memphis Belle, Chuckie, Madras Maiden, Ye Olde Pub. The last three are same airframe with three different names. The 'Pub' looking spectacular. The 17 suffers from poor aileron effectiveness at slower speeds (base and final approach) and wind acts on large rudder surface area requiring upwind throttles to aid in preserving directional control. All electric gear and flaps except cowl flaps and brakes which are hydraulic. All these other airplanes mentioned are typically all hydraulic systems.

B-25 is nicest flying (except DC-4 is best of all). B-25 nosewheel casters +/- 60 deg and is challenging to taxi. Brakes are very effective and require getting used too. On departure roll, float the nose wheel at 85/90 lift off at 120 and accelerate to 160. Between 120 and 145 suffers from inadequate rudder authority to preclude resultant yaw (and subsequent roll) should a catastrophic engine failure occur. So one accelerates rapidly thru 145 (Vmc) to Vy (160) since this is area requires a power reduction in concert with full rudder an effort preclude yaw and roll should a failure occur in this speed region.

PBY(5A) was designed as a straight flying boat utilizing waterways. The landing gear is an afterthought and is archaic. I wrote a short piece in Warbirds Int'l (Nov./Dec. 2011 vol. 30. no.8) about the Military Aviation Museums PBY entitled 'From The Cockpit'. Hydrodynamically is poor on the water compared to even an Albatross, let alone the Canadiar's. Poorly harmonized controls in flight. Lightest in pitch, heavier in roll, (1400 sq. ft. of wing is a large damping moment) and very heavy about the vertical axis (yaw). When rolling into a turn, it's a long moment arm out to the centerline of induced drag of the downward deflected aileron causing significant adverse yaw requiring significant rudder pressure. But therein lies the challenge of flying it accurately. Rolling in and out of turns in airshows is hard work and can where you out quickly. Floats extended noticeably compromises aileron authority. And, when level 8 to 10 knots of speed is lost. Executing steep turns with floats extended while preserving altitude can place you close to the critical alpha.

Oh and DC-3.... The airplane has a 15.5 deg. outer panel wing sweepback causing the stall to occur at the tips and propagate inward causing loss of aileron effectiveness. Moreover, the disturbed airflow at the tips is outside the span of the horizontal stab. so no aerodynamic buffet is felt prior to the stall. Otherwise, a decent airplane.

All these old airplanes have no stall warning systems.

Thats a very quick and dirty. Thanks for the review of the Aero and Eastman lightweight Irvins!

Cheers,
Bob



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Bob
Thanks to you for a phenomenal review of some of the flight characteristics of all of those aircraft and for these brilliant photographs. I think your efforts as well as those of your friends at maintaining those old war birds, is a testimonial to your love for flying, and your dedication to preserving the heritage of those vintage flying machines that helped to win the Second World War. Please know that you are a welcome member here anytime you feel like dropping in. I can assure you that we all admire your skill and love for flying these magnificent historical aircraft. Also thank you for your kind words regarding John Levers and my review of the Aero and Eastman Irvin’s . John did a wonderful job reviewing the Eastman and he’s a great guy to work with on these reviews. He really is the “go to guy” for information on Shearling jackets in my opinion. Best wishes to you and thanks for taking the time to put down some of your thoughts on each of those aircrafts.
Cheers
Burt
 

Flightengineer

Well-Known Member
Bob, thanks for the detailed answer. It was very interesting to read about Catalina for me.
I also didn't know that the B-17 also didn't have a stall warning.
We're so used to these efficient systems today that it seems like they've always been around.
I can imagine how difficult to fly this old big birds during the show.
 

Lorenzo_l

Well-Known Member
Hi Burt.....your review of the Aero Irvin with John Lever is what brought me back here. John was the one I PM'd about the Fly Weight. And, I love it.

No, to the military due to 20/25 eyesight at the time. I had a 'round engine' background due to career patch. Freight with Beech 18, DC-3, etc. Forestry tankers, DC-4, CL-215, and Cl-415, etc. (I'm typed in 5 large flying boats). B-17 was made available while flying B-25's on a ride program (historical flights for the public) and being in the right place at the right time with the same people. I have 2100 hrs. in three 17's.I did a lot of rides/airshows throughout US in my spare time.

All these airplanes are different with their own idiosyncrasies. One could go on for some time. One always enjoys whatever you're in at the moment. Its the challenge of flying them accurately I enjoy.

B-17 is quintessential and fun to share for that reason.I flew Liberty Belle, Movie Memphis Belle, Chuckie, Madras Maiden, Ye Olde Pub. The last three are same airframe with three different names. The 'Pub' looking spectacular. The 17 suffers from poor aileron effectiveness at slower speeds (base and final approach) and wind acts on large rudder surface area requiring upwind throttles to aid in preserving directional control. All electric gear and flaps except cowl flaps and brakes which are hydraulic. All these other airplanes mentioned are typically all hydraulic systems.

B-25 is nicest flying (except DC-4 is best of all). B-25 nosewheel casters +/- 60 deg and is challenging to taxi. Brakes are very effective and require getting used too. On departure roll, float the nose wheel at 85/90 lift off at 120 and accelerate to 160. Between 120 and 145 suffers from inadequate rudder authority to preclude resultant yaw (and subsequent roll) should a catastrophic engine failure occur. So one accelerates rapidly thru 145 (Vmc) to Vy (160) since this is area requires a power reduction in concert with full rudder an effort preclude yaw and roll should a failure occur in this speed region.

PBY(5A) was designed as a straight flying boat utilizing waterways. The landing gear is an afterthought and is archaic. I wrote a short piece in Warbirds Int'l (Nov./Dec. 2011 vol. 30. no.8) about the Military Aviation Museums PBY entitled 'From The Cockpit'. Hydrodynamically is poor on the water compared to even an Albatross, let alone the Canadiar's. Poorly harmonized controls in flight. Lightest in pitch, heavier in roll, (1400 sq. ft. of wing is a large damping moment) and very heavy about the vertical axis (yaw). When rolling into a turn, it's a long moment arm out to the centerline of induced drag of the downward deflected aileron causing significant adverse yaw requiring significant rudder pressure. But therein lies the challenge of flying it accurately. Rolling in and out of turns in airshows is hard work and can where you out quickly. Floats extended noticeably compromises aileron authority. And, when level 8 to 10 knots of speed is lost. Executing steep turns with floats extended while preserving altitude can place you close to the critical alpha.

Oh and DC-3.... The airplane has a 15.5 deg. outer panel wing sweepback causing the stall to occur at the tips and propagate inward causing loss of aileron effectiveness. Moreover, the disturbed airflow at the tips is outside the span of the horizontal stab. so no aerodynamic buffet is felt prior to the stall. Otherwise, a decent airplane.

All these old airplanes have no stall warning systems.

Thats a very quick and dirty. Thanks for the review of the Aero and Eastman lightweight Irvins!

Cheers,
Bob



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Wow Bob. Welcome aboard. It's a pleasure to have a fellow pilot on the forum and one with considerable ( 2100 hours on B-17s!!...) time and type-rated on B-25s, Dc-4s and Dc-3s. A round-engine pilot you are! I imagine all these aircraft having their idiosyncrasies, which I guess comes in part from a time when designing airplanes was as much of an art as it was a science. Keep the stories coming, please!
 

B17b25guy

Member
Bob, thanks for the detailed answer. It was very interesting to read about Catalina for me.
I also didn't know that the B-17 also didn't have a stall warning.
We're so used to these efficient systems today that it seems like they've always been around.
I can imagine how difficult to fly this old big birds during the show.
Indeed, none of those airplanes have any stall warning systems. Just ones own sense of proprioception and awareness.
 

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
Greetings all.....I tend not to hang out in forums and typically would join one to gather information about something I'm interested in learning about or acquiring. Primarily, because I don't have time. With respect to this one, I recently began receiving notifications of postings and picked up on the C-47 thread. In more recent times I visited here (and Fedora) and PM''d a member about the Eastman Fly Weight Irvin after he posted a review. I now have one. That said, I'll place my 2011 Eastman BOB Irvin (44) up somewhere before long. It's never left the house.

Airplanes....I haven't flown a DC-3 in a long time and would simply need to get recurrent (study manuals and fly in type) . I have flown six B-25's over the years. Three B-17's (Liberty Foundation's ride program. I'm one of the original pilots) , a half dozen PBY's, etc. I have been flying at The Military Aviation Museum for 20 yrs this year. While there are many clips on YT people share over the years, here's some I am familiar with.


(sadly my copilot during this one passed away from Covid last year)


(the best Cat footage starting about 6:38)


Cheers,
Bob
Whole lot of awesome compressed into one post. Thank you. Look forward to seeing and hearing from you...

Always welcome!
 

Thomas Koehle

Well-Known Member
Greetings all.....I tend not to hang out in forums and typically would join one to gather information about something I'm interested in learning about or acquiring. Primarily, because I don't have time. With respect to this one, I recently began receiving notifications of postings and picked up on the C-47 thread. In more recent times I visited here (and Fedora) and PM''d a member about the Eastman Fly Weight Irvin after he posted a review. I now have one. That said, I'll place my 2011 Eastman BOB Irvin (44) up somewhere before long. It's never left the house.

Airplanes....I haven't flown a DC-3 in a long time and would simply need to get recurrent (study manuals and fly in type) . I have flown six B-25's over the years. Three B-17's (Liberty Foundation's ride program. I'm one of the original pilots) , a half dozen PBY's, etc. I have been flying at The Military Aviation Museum for 20 yrs this year. While there are many clips on YT people share over the years, here's some I am familiar with.


(sadly my copilot during this one passed away from Covid last year)


(the best Cat footage starting about 6:38)


Cheers,
Bob

Stunning videos - my highest respect for flying such vintage machines
 
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