Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[zoomer]

Smashing!!

Just make sure to do a Werber 32-6225 label to enclose with each jacket if it turns out that’s what they are!!!

 

[zoomer]

I gotta say: how much can a person expect to learn from a discussion about button flap pockets??? This thread has rekindled my dormant interest in all aspects of interwar aviation!

 

[33-1729]

Does anyone know where Hap Arnold's jacket may be?

 

[B-Man2]

Does anyone know where Hap Arnold's jacket may be?

If it still exists, the most logical place for it to reside would be the US Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio, however , I don’t remember ever seeing it there.

 

[Geeboo]

is it a tabbed collar ?

 

[Geeboo]

Is the collar double-stitched ?
What is this patch ?

Do you think it is a single-ply cuff & waistband ?

 

[Geeboo]

How is that ?

 

[DiamondDave]

Same thing, different terminology....we say pavement, you say sidewalk

As I said in my first post re this A-2 collar.......like an A-1

Certainly your “designers eye” understands that there is a difference between a tab and a loop? This is not an EU vs USA thing, it’s simply a sewing term, and one I’m quite surprised you wouldn’t know.



DD

 

[zoomer]

zoomer goes multi-quote crazy

If it still exists, the most logical place for it to reside would be the US Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio, however , I don’t remember ever seeing it there.

I doubt everything at USAFM is on display?

is it a tabbed collar ?

It looks like one. But it's Arnold again. Having someone else wearing one would suggest it was a production feature.

Is the collar double-stitched ?

Doesn't look like it. Besides, a collar doesn't need to be as strongly built as a pocket.

What is this patch ?

1st Observation Squadron, stationed at Mitchel Field, NY. Became 1st Bomb Sq when the 9th Obs'vn Gp became 9th BG in 1935. I looked it up here.

This must be between 1932-'35 because a) A-2 and b) observation plane (it's a Curtiss Falcon biplane).

Crest and color description: click to enlarge

Do you think it is a single-ply cuff & waistband ?

It could be. It seems to have a very thin edge.

How is that ?

Nice but where are you getting the red from?

 

[Geeboo]

just guess from the black and white photo of the jacket patch & guess from its shade what real color it is - yellow is definitely out.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Certainly your “designers eye” understands that there is a difference between a tab and a loop? This is not an EU vs USA thing, it’s simply a sewing term, and one I’m quite surprised you wouldn’t know.

DD

Tab Collar Shirt?
That's got a loop but it's not called a loop collar

 

[2BM2K]

The date 1933 is right out. The first AATU class reported Jan. 11, 1935, per the Air Corps News Letter of Feb. 1, 1935. School was at Rockwell Field, CA.

I got the date from Goetz's pass certificate dated 1933;

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

, with the info gleaned this weekend Aero are game to give making a repro Goldsmith a shot

Just in case anyone thinks we are only making one because Headwind have now said they are planning a version

 

[Geeboo]

There is just 2 buttoned flap A2 which no original specimen are yet found.
There is also just 2 unidentified buttoned flap A2 pattern - see attached [collar tab vs no epaulet].
Excluding the possibility of test samples, IS it logical to deduct the 2 unidentified buttoned flap A2 MUST be either Goldsmith or Weber 32.
The Q is : which is which ? can I have Have your poll ?

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Certainly your “designers eye” understands that there is a difference between a tab and a loop? This is not an EU vs USA thing, it’s simply a sewing term, and one I’m quite surprised you wouldn’t know.
DD

This has already been discussed in post #74 without attitude

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

If it still exists, the most logical place for it to reside would be the US Air Force Museum at Wright Patterson AFB, Dayton Ohio, however , I don’t remember ever seeing it there.

Go search google images, he had severalA-2s

 

[Roughwear]

There is just 2 buttoned flap A2 which no original specimen are yet found.
There is also just 2 unidentified buttoned flap A2 pattern - see attached [collar tab vs no epaulet].
Excluding the possibility of test samples, IS it logical to deduct the 2 unidentified buttoned flap A2 MUST be either Goldsmith or Weber 32.
The Q is : which is which ? can I have Have your poll ?View attachment 6139

This has already been discussed. The Arnold jacket is most likely a Goldsmith and the other jacket a test jacket from an unidentified maker. We do not need a poll just more historical research to cast more light on these early button flap A-2s.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I'm surprised nobody has questioned the European style piped button holes?
1. They are ugly
2. Their use was, and still is, VERY rare in USA
3. They don't preform well, they tend to unravel, especially if they aren't top stiched around the edges and the Air Corps ones aren't.
4. They are timeconsuming and tricky/fiddly to sew and hard to match from one to the next
5. Every leather shop in USA seemed to have Reece (or similar) button hole machine in those days, 10 seconds for a perfect button hole as opposed to 3 to 4 minutes for an inferior button hole

My theory........
There was a misunderstanding of the term "Leather Faced" by the early contractors
If I had read the spec back in 1930, I'd have read that as" leather backing to pocket flap", as opposed to a cloth backing, quite common in the 1920s. We'd have backed the flaps in leather and used our Button Hole machine!

It's hard to be sure but from what I can see the button holes on Hap's jacket apperar to be US style (Machine made) rather than the hand made European piped/welted style on the other two A-2s
This also makes sense due to the exact defintition/ terminology of the word "Facing"...............The tab/loop "debate" reminded me of this post, and the song "Lets Call The Whole Thing Off"

BTW I stand to be correced on the terms of the words, "Piped", "Welted" & "Facing/Faced" in the good old US of A

 

[zoomer]

I got the date from Goetz's pass certificate dated 1933;

View attachment 6138

Oh my, I missed that. The News Letter seemed to treat the unit as if newly formed in '35.
I'll have a go thru the 1933 edition and see what I can find about it.

 

[zoomer]

just guess from the black and white photo of the jacket patch & guess from its shade what real color it is - yellow is definitely out.

Even with the yellow artist conception (years after the fact apparently) and the tendency of film in that era to render yellow as dark grey?