Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

[Ken at Aero Leather]

the jacket Arnold is wearing has set-in sleeves
.

How can you see this? Have I missed a second photo? It's certainly impossible to judge from the group of three

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

The positioning of Hap's name tag screams very early 1930/31?

 

[2BM2K]

How can you see this? Have I missed a second photo? It's certainly impossible to judge from the group of three

By the position of the arm seam.

The seam is more forward and visible. With a flat sewn seam it is further back and difficult to see.

 

[Roughwear]

I have cropped the trio picture and magnified the picture of Arnold's jacket. Here it is in close up. I notice the collar stand is significantly wider than that found on the Security or the Wereber 1729. The double stitching on the pockets, mentioned by Jay is interesting too. I was wrong about the Werber attribution and suspect it is one of the 25 jackets made by Goldsmith under the 31-1897 order.

 

[Smithy]

View attachment 6108
suspect it is one of the 25 jackets made by Goldsmith under the 31-1897 order.

That really is awesome if finally we have a picture of a Goldsmith. I'm not an A-2/A-1 expert by any stretch so I have nothing to add but just wanted to say it's been great to hear all the arguments and counter-arguments from those in the know in this thread.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

View attachment 6108

I have cropped the trio picture and magnified the picture of Arnold's jacket. Here it is in close up. I notice the collar stand is significantly wider than that found on the Security or the Wereber 1729. The double stitching on the pockets, mentioned by Jay is interesting too. I was wrong about the Werber attribution and suspect it is one of the 25 jackets made by Goldsmith under the 31-1897 order.

So there are no epaulets on Arnold's Jacket? Can't quite say from the looking at the picture. If there were, they'd be quite small compared to those on the the other two jackets in the original jacket.
Would lack of epaulets be unique to the Goldsmith contract? And as far as Ive gathered, there were epaulets on the Werber 1729, right?

 

[Roughwear]

There are epaulets on Arnold's jacket, but they are further back than seen on early Werber jackets.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

By the position of the arm seam.

The seam is more forward and visible. With a flat sewn seam it is further back and difficult to see.

Not necessarily so much depends on stance, angle, I stand by "impossible to tell from photo"

 

[Lorenzo_l]

There are epaulets on Arnold's jacket, but they are further back than seen on early Werber jackets.

One last point for tonight...which didn't get anyone's attention when 2BM2K posted about it last fall.
He noted about Tooey Spaatz' jacket, "I cannot see a shoulder seam."
Looking closely, what I think he meant is: it has no epaulets!
View attachment 5997 click to enlarge

And Ross Hoyt's doesn't look like it has any, either!
View attachment 5998 click to enlarge

Both have the extra wide zipper footings.
Both have the close set, rather narrow pockets.
Both appear to have no epps, just the rank marks as used on the A-1.

These details rule out Security, and probably the slightly later Werber 32-6225 as well.
Meaning, we have to be looking at two Goldsmith 31-1897s.
So...the first A-2 had no epaulets.

I am a bit confused now. From Zoomer's previous message, the Goldsmith 31-1897s A2s apparently did not have epaulets. Arnold's A2s has epaulets. Can it still be a Goldsmith?

 

[Skyhawk]

We surmised that those two jackets could have been test jackets without the epaulets. A contract jacket such as Goldsmith would have followed the 30-1415 drawing and would have had epaulets. It is too big of a feature to be left out if you are following a pattern, but possible if you are developing a test jacket.

Who would have the original test jackets have gone to? Well a couple of our top pilots of course!

With the set in sleeves, I thought the same thing. It sure looks like if you follow that seam up, it would end in front of the side seam. You can't tell 100% but it sure appears that way to me.

 

[Persimmon]

We surmised that those two jackets could have been test jackets without the epaulets. A contract jacket such as Goldsmith would have followed the 30-1415 drawing and would have had epaulets. It is too big of a feature to be left out if you are following a pattern, but possible if you are developing a test jacket.

Who would have the original test jackets have gone to? Well a couple of our top pilots of course!

With the set in sleeves, I thought the same thing. It sure looks like if you follow that seam up, it would end in front of the side seam. You can't tell 100% but it sure appears that way to me.

I am a bit confused now. From Zoomer's previous message, the Goldsmith 31-1897s A2s apparently did not have epaulets. Arnold's A2s has epaulets. Can it still be a Goldsmith?




Could it also mean there is another “ currently unknown “ limited production run from another manufacturer trying to win/ secure a contract with the government.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

We surmised that those two jackets could have been test jackets without the epaulets. A contract jacket such as Goldsmith would have followed the 30-1415 drawing and would have had epaulets. It is too big of a feature to be left out if you are following a pattern, but possible if you are developing a test jacket.

Who would have the original test jackets have gone to? Well a couple of our top pilots of course!

With the set in sleeves, I thought the same thing. It sure looks like if you follow that seam up, it would end in front of the side seam. You can't tell 100% but it sure appears that way to me.

Thanks for clarifying, Jay!

 

[Roughwear]

I suspect the two jackets without epaulets were test jackets and the order for 25 A-2s from Goldsmith had epaulets as per the spec. The jacket which Arnold is wearing is most likely by Goldsmith.

 

[Lorenzo_l]

What a great thread this is. An education for me....

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I have to disagree 100% about the sleeves.....based on the photo and 90% on the laws of probability
The maker must have had an A-1 on hand, there are clues here and there, cuffs, pockets, loop/tab
If it was Goldsmith they weren't a tailoring company, why would they have redsigned the A-1 sleeve making it harder and slower to manufacture
Check through period pics there are loads of A-2s being worn where the underarm seam is showing in much the same way.

 

[Persimmon]

I suspect the two jackets without epaulets were test jackets and the order for 25 A-2s from Goldsmith had epaulets as per the spec. The jacket which Arnold is wearing is most likely by Goldsmith.

Andrew, it’s been a joy to follow this thread and see a jacket that was not pictured/ recognised before.
However I struggle with the definitive attribution for the Arnold jacket to be the fabled “Goldsmith“ contract.
Why would a company go the trouble of making one/two test jackets following a pattern and leaving out this key itemised element (the epaulettes) and then just put it back in to make just 25 more jackets.
It may be. Are we just trying to force the jigsaw together to get the picture we want.
It could be argued though it’s by some other manufacturer. Either a private purchase produced jacket(s) or a currently not known contract.
Most folks here have a greater and superior jacket knowledge than myself and it’s very possible I am missing the obvious.
Hopefully a jacket appears out of the woodwork so to speak to show us clearly.

 

[Skyhawk]

That is good logic Ken. My only thought is that maybe it was an idea from SAT who must have been working on a test jacket around the same time. Did they see an SAT test jacket?

 

[Roughwear]

Andrew, it’s been a joy to follow this thread and see a jacket that was not pictured/ recognised before.
However I struggle with the definitive attribution for the Arnold jacket to be the fabled “Goldsmith“ contract.
Why would a company go the trouble of making one/two test jackets following a pattern and leaving out this key itemised element (the epaulettes) and then just put it back in to make just 25 more jackets.
It may be. Are we just trying to force the jigsaw together to get the picture we want.
It could be argued though it’s by some other manufacturer. Either a private purchase produced jacket(s) or a currently not known contract.
Most folks here have a greater and superior jacket knowledge than myself and it’s very possible I am missing the obvious.
Hopefully a jacket appears out of the woodwork so to speak to show us clearly.

There can't be a definitive attribution of the Arnold jacket to Goldsmith, but Goldsmith seems to be a likely maker. I am not saying the two jackets without epaulets were made by Goldsmith. The AC could have used an A-1 contractor such as Pritzker or Gordon and Ferguson to make the test jackets which were evaluated and then Goldsmith was awarded the order for the first 25 production jackets. I very much doubt if Arnold would have privately purchased his A2. As a senior officer he was an ideal person to be issued with a government purchased A2. There may have been other unknown government orders, but until there is documentary evidence for them this is purely speculation.

 

[2BM2K]

What is required are photographs prior to July 1931.

Hopefully the 30-1415 drawing will be found one day.

In the meantime, worth going back to this photo;

Enhanced.

Note the way the epaulette draws back over the shoulder, a Werber trait.

 

[Dr H]

View attachment 6108

I have cropped the trio picture and magnified the picture of Arnold's jacket. Here it is in close up. I notice the collar stand is significantly wider than that found on the Security or the Wereber 1729. The double stitching on the pockets, mentioned by Jay is interesting too. I was wrong about the Werber attribution and suspect it is one of the 25 jackets made by Goldsmith under the 31-1897 order.

The cuffs on those early '30s jackets are really long, aren't they?

I might be over-thinking this, but looking at the 'skinned' jacket on the extreme right, is the pocket on the pilot's left (the viewer's right) missing? Is that the original colour of the jacket underneath? It's a poorly resolved image, but I can't make out a flap (and the colour matches the other jackets well). Might answer the question about 'sanding' if in fact the jacket had been really well used/poorly treated to have lost a pocket and been abraided.