Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

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I have dated the photos of Arnold and Spatz with Bebe Daniels and Ben Lyon.
They visited March Field for a review October 15, 1932.

Arnold was CO of March then, Spatz was CO of the 7th Bomb Group there. He didn't add that extra a till later.

From the Air Corps News Letter, Nov. 30, 1932:

(I found the above reference while researching Bebe Daniels' visit to Long Beach as Col. Arnold's guest for joint Army-Navy maneuvers, Oct. 30, 1932 - which the News Letter says nothing at all about! Ben Lyon, Daniels' husband, had trained as a pilot in WW1 and did his own flying when he starred in Howard Hughes' Hell's Angels.)

 

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One last point for tonight...which didn't get anyone's attention when 2BM2K posted about it last fall.
He noted about Tooey Spaatz' jacket, "I cannot see a shoulder seam."
Looking closely, what I think he meant is: it has no epaulets!
click to enlarge

And Ross Hoyt's doesn't look like it has any, either!
click to enlarge

Both have the extra wide zipper footings.
Both have the close set, rather narrow pockets.
Both appear to have no epps, just the rank marks as used on the A-1.

These details rule out Security, and probably the slightly later Werber 32-6225 as well.
Meaning, we have to be looking at two Goldsmith 31-1897s.
So...the first A-2 had no epaulets.

 

[2BM2K]

Thanks for finding the date information, which means that both photo's are dated to October 1932.

I feel that there should be more photo's of Spaatz wearing this jacket, seems to be a publicity shoot
for the AAC and March Field.

Geoff

 

[Roughwear]

Thanks for this info Paul. It does make sense that the Goldsmith A2 was devoid of epaulets following on from the A-1.

 

[33-1729]

Thanks for this info Paul. It does make sense that the Goldsmith A2 was devoid of epaulets following on from the A-1.

Great spot! Yes, sounds like missing epaulets could be a key detail for identifying the Goldsmith A-2. I wonder if the Spaatz or Hoyt family still has the jacket? In a museum, perhaps?

 

[Roughwear]

Yes, it does make sense and I think in another thread about identifying an an A-2 we have spotted a Werber 32-6225.

http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/early-a-2-id.21092/page-3

 

[Skyhawk]

Isn't this the same aircraft and jacket on Spatz? It has epaulets but they are set back, centered or in back of the shoulder seam. They may not be visible in the other photo.

 

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Different plane, different goggles, and I'd say a different jacket. (Looks to be a much bigger collar.)

 

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Another Spatz pic - May 7, 1932, with the new P-26 prototype at Rockwell Field, CA. L-R: Lt. Col. Barton Yount, base CO; Rear Adm. Harry Yarnell (who that year mounted a successful sham air raid on Pearl Harbor), and Maj. Spatz.

The lack of epaulets is confirmed...we're looking at the Goldsmith!
(Is there any kind of snap or other securement for the collar points? I'd say no.)

(from the San Diego History Center, https://photostore.sandiegohistory....n-yarnell-rear-admiral-spatz-major-carl-1932/)

 

[B-Man2]

The “Holy Grail” of the A2’s. Looks like the Goldsmith was a combination of adding a collar and a zipper to an A1 jacket. The smaller pockets look to be from an A1 with no epaulets like the A1. A very logical progression in the initial development of the A2. I wonder if it was made from horse hide or cape skin...
Are we looking at the next contract reproduction jacket??
Whoever steps up to make this one, will make his mark in the Repro field.
Great research Zoomer!!

 

[zoomer]

Great spot! Yes, sounds like missing epaulets could be a key detail for identifying the Goldsmith A-2. I wonder if the Spaatz or Hoyt family still has the jacket? In a museum, perhaps?

One would assume things from famous fliers that get into military museums were worn in wartime, on some famous flight, or perhaps in space. The whole trouble with the interwar period is that it was so relatively uneventful, and matériel so dear that it was generally all used up. Otherwise it wouldn't be so forgotten.

 

[zoomer]

The “Holy Grail” of the A2’s. Looks like the Goldsmith was a combination of adding a collar and a zipper to an A1 jacket. The smaller pockets look to be from an A1 with no epaulets like the A1. A very logical progression in the initial development of the A2. I wonder if it was made from horse hide or cape skin...
Are we looking at the next contract reproduction jacket??
Whoever steps up to make this one, will make his mark in the Repro field.
Great research Zoomer!!

Well, I had help from those who started the discussion last year (when I was taking a prolonged break from VLJ).

I tell ya, when I heard about undiscovered early contracts, I about ground-looped my easy chair!!!

And yes, horsehide was part of the spec from the get go. Thus the choice of Goldsmith. You wouldn't go to a maker of baseballs and mitts - most all made of old Dobbin then - if you wanted capeskin jackets!

 

[33-1729]

As the Security Aviation Togs contract 32-485 had epaulets and the first three contracts with button pocket flaps were grouped together in the original A-2 documentation (Goldsmith 31-1897, SAT 32-485, and Werber 32-6225), I wonder if all three of the first contracts had epaulets since they would have followed the same drawing spec 30-1415. (I'm still looking for the drawing and may have more in a few months.)

The A-2 pre-production prototypes were tested Sept 20, 1930 and I wonder if the prototype didn't have epaulets, but all the production A-2's beginning with the Goldsmith 31-1897 did going off the same 30-1415 drawing. Is it possible Major Spatz has a pre-production prototype? Does anyone have an "A-2" picture from Sep 1930 to Jan 1931?

 

[Skyhawk]

I believe that could be the case. Also I believe that Hap Arnold's jacket on the right in the photo form the other post could in fact be a Goldsmith and not a Werber.

A few reasons.
1. Smaller pocket that has a pointy flap compare to the Werber's rounded flap. Also appears to have double top stitching.
2. The collar shape is different and it has no snaps and a button over chip strap like an A-1.
3. Epaulets seem to be placed back further than usual. (I wish we had a better view of those.

Regards,
Jay

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

To further muddy the waters, check the throat latches on these. Philipine Air Corps 1930s, shame about the picture quality but it's clear enough

 

[Skyhawk]

Interesting. Those look like snaps. Maybe an "in the field" addition? I don't see rivets on the zip but not to clear of an image so it's hard to be sure.
Cool photo!

 

[2BM2K]

Interesting point about the dates, might be worth looking at the time-line.

Goldsmith 31-1897. The contract number implies a contract date between July 1930 and June 1931.

Service Test 20th Sept. 1930

Standard 9th May 1931.

The standard date of May 1931 leaves very little time to
procure and sign contracts by the end of June.

The Service test date of 20th Sept 1930 fits in nicely with the possible
Goldsmith contract dates.

The Goldsmith jacket could be the test jacket. Maybe it was then decided that
epaulettes were needed.



The Arnold jacket poses more questions than answers. The epaulette dragging back over the shoulder
seems to be a trait of Werber jacket, see the photo of the Philipine airmen.

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

I'm pretty sure I can see an epaulette on Hap's jacket, maybe set over the shoulder seam, the ridge/edge looks too thick to be a seam, with the info gleaned this weekend Aero are game to give making a repro Goldsmith a shot

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Interesting. Those look like snaps. Maybe an "in the field" addition? I don't see rivets on the zip but not to clear of an image so it's hard to be sure.
Cool photo!

Three the same? I don't think so, and they seem identical, and to do it neatly isn't a 10 minute job. I've never seen anything like this on a flight jacket before, looks like the throat latch on an early 30's Hercules Half Belt

Personally I wouldn't dismiss these too lightly though

Tounge in cheek, there's a thriving Philipino community in Cincinatti (Home of Goldsmith) maybe a few were passed on (via the back door) to the the Philipino Air Corps AVI-5 Star style :>)

 

[33-1729]

Interesting point about the dates, might be worth looking at the time-line.

Goldsmith 31-1897. The contract number implies a contract date between July 1930 and June 1931.

Service Test 20th Sept. 1930

Standard 9th May 1931.

The standard date of May 1931 leaves very little time to
procure and sign contracts by the end of June.

The Service test date of 20th Sept 1930 fits in nicely with the possible
Goldsmith contract dates.

The Goldsmith jacket could be the test jacket. Maybe it was then decided that
epaulettes were needed.



The Arnold jacket poses more questions than answers. The epaulette dragging back over the shoulder
seems to be a trait of Werber jacket, see the photo of the Philipine airmen.

I keep forgetting the year date of the contract is not based upon the calendar year (Jan to Dec), but the fiscal year so 31-1897 doesn’t mean only during 1931.

Originally I thought the pre-production A-2 tests would be competed as the pre-production A-1 tests with a few different samples from a few different vendors (pg. 116 in Mr. Eastman’s excellent book), but I’m questioning that now. Perhaps based upon the A-1 tests they deciding upon the general A-2 specifications such as zipper, horsehide, cotton lining, etc., and simply had Goldsmith make the first batch. A zippered "A-2" photograph from July 1930 to May 1931 would be a great find.

I would also think Hap Arnold's jacket is in a museum somewhere (or should be).