saucerfiend
Well-Known Member
Jeff M said:
I'd have given up on this deal long ago. Jeff, you must be a glutton for punishment. And, after the poorly constructed Navy jacket you bought from them! Sure hope they take care of you soon.
Brian
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I'd have given up on this deal long ago. Jeff, you must be a glutton for punishment. And, after the poorly constructed Navy jacket you bought from them! Sure hope they take care of you soon.
Brian
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Anonymous
Guest
I am getting a little tired of the stereotype phrase "I want to see the jackets on the backs of the customers" (that is before I order mine). Today I bumped on an industry magazine article that started with "These days, it is not enough to know how good you are; you must also be able to prove it". Here goes.
When I tell you that the BK jacket is stitch by stitch reproduction of the original, I expect you to believe it, and not wonder how it will fit and look on your back or the back of the customer. It's a stupid question. It will look like the goddamn original does, that's how it will look. Of course, this is true provided that your back isn't like Quasimodo's back
But even if it is, BK will make you a jacket with your measurements and it WILL FIT.
Now on to the proof.
same color knit
same color lining (original is faded)
same shape pocket flap (the shape of the collar is shown on the Star thread)
same height side seam
same sleeve length
same back length
same pit to pit
same shoulders
same pocket body size
same shoulder size
same sleeve width
same pocket height
same pocket flap size
same
same
same
same
same
same pocket stitching
same inset sleeve
same
same
same
Now this is all freaking SAME, why do you think it would fit different?
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Anonymous
Guest
in correction of above
unclegrumpy
Well-Known Member
I am sorry, but this is not a "stereotype phrase", but rather one of your core marketing issues. Quoting a fancy magazine article is not going to solve it either, and only serves to illustrate how out of touch you are with what many of your potential customers are thinking.PLATON said:
That said, I do not think anyone disputes your enthusiasm, energy, photographic skills, desire to be successful, and ever growing attention to detail.
However, what you are overly discounting is the importance of a customer physically inspecting something, especially a premium product. For example, I can't tell you how many Eastman jackets that I have seen, owned, and discussed with their owners. It is well into the 100's.
Over the years, I have been apart of numerous discussion sessions where jackets were thrown all over someone's living room floor, or Air Show booth, or where ever....all laid out for the comparison of size, fit, color, leather, and various other details.
Many times that was just to show off or compare, but often it was because upgrading is always on peoples minds, and seeing something better or different might be the thing that triggers an order. An order that came from inspecting, discussing, and trying something on, not pictures.
While this is painful and frustrating to keep hearing, there is no substitute for getting sufficient product out in the marketplace.
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi, I do not disagree with you.
It seems the majority of the customers so far have been people outside the forums. We had American, French, Japanese, Chinese and others. They have sent tons of "thank you" emails which you will agree would be pointless if I posted here.
There have been some guys from the forums who got excellent jackets, have sent "thank you" emails and promised they would write reviews. They haven't. Too lazy I suppose? I do not have any explanation why they haven't. Neither I can force them to write reviews.
I am also surprised that we get strangers as clients and our friends here keep ignoring us.
But the truth remains that the photos do not lie. Quality and fit is there, 100%.
The message I get from the stereotype phrase is "we don't trust you that you can make quality / good fitting jackets, that's why we need to see them worn by someone else before we buy".
Sorry, but this is completely wrong. The torso we use to photograph the jackets is a "fitting torso". It is the thing tailors, all tailors, use to make their jackets fit well. So if the jacket fits the torso perfect, it will also fit your body perfect. That's the purpose of the torso. It's not a hanger to hang your coat. What can I say about the people who don't understand that? And what can I say about the makers who can't make a jacket to fit the torso well? It's not my business.
There is no disrespect to the customers. But after the thousands of photos I have posted here and there and all the first hand info, the money back guarantees etc., it's just sad that I still haven't been able to win your trust.
It seems the majority of the customers so far have been people outside the forums. We had American, French, Japanese, Chinese and others. They have sent tons of "thank you" emails which you will agree would be pointless if I posted here.
There have been some guys from the forums who got excellent jackets, have sent "thank you" emails and promised they would write reviews. They haven't. Too lazy I suppose? I do not have any explanation why they haven't. Neither I can force them to write reviews.
I am also surprised that we get strangers as clients and our friends here keep ignoring us.
But the truth remains that the photos do not lie. Quality and fit is there, 100%.
The message I get from the stereotype phrase is "we don't trust you that you can make quality / good fitting jackets, that's why we need to see them worn by someone else before we buy".
Sorry, but this is completely wrong. The torso we use to photograph the jackets is a "fitting torso". It is the thing tailors, all tailors, use to make their jackets fit well. So if the jacket fits the torso perfect, it will also fit your body perfect. That's the purpose of the torso. It's not a hanger to hang your coat. What can I say about the people who don't understand that? And what can I say about the makers who can't make a jacket to fit the torso well? It's not my business.
There is no disrespect to the customers. But after the thousands of photos I have posted here and there and all the first hand info, the money back guarantees etc., it's just sad that I still haven't been able to win your trust.
Vcruiser
Well-Known Member
There's a curious detach somewhere. Plus past weird selling tactics(eBay). Don't know if it's a cultural thing or just now attempting to backfill excuses for possible past few sales. As nice as the jackets look..you'd think they'd be selling like hotcakes with many reviews. Leads one to believe that not being able to have supplies on hand is the culprit. If you cannot keep enough steady supplies on hand for a few different A2 styles..how in the world can you now do it with an expanding catalog of more new designs and hides? Anyone can insist that they rank at the top..or better..but until production proves something..it's all just window dressing. BK has been around for several years now. One would think there would be by now a better planned flowing pipeline with growing pains at a minimum. However..if they tire of the public's(customers?)observing and wondering and call it stereotyping that makes it even more concerning,if you're honest.
ButteMT61
Well-Known Member
PLATON said:
You (again and again) couldn't be more wrong. I (and others) ask this because I want to see how it looks on a person. I'm not giving a rat's ass here about the 1:1 comparison of the "originals".
I want to see them on a real human and get feedback from people here who are experts. I don't care about what someone on the internet says who might have more money than sense. I don't care about why I can't see them here or on TFL - the fact is, I don't.
Then, to top things off, you once again insult potential customers here. I must say, it's tough to want to even try a BK - in spite of some nice looking pics.
I guess I'm going to move on to the next GW order and wait. If there's not one pic of a human wearing a BK - even YOU - then I'm at a loss. And poor Jeff gets to look at all the new models and still has no A-2? PLATON, something is not right...
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
Mate,
You are never going to win this one. Apparently the reviews and pics on VLJ from buyers who take the time to post, as recently as today, are not enough. When the Mods at the Fedora Lounge close it down they just start the barrage in this direction. A wait for hides is unsatisfactory. A longer wait for a queue is fine. Adopt that strategy perhaps. There are fewer of ANY style of jacket popping up these days as reviews or 'shares'. Regardless of anyone's leanings. Until you start a Gallery on the website nobody is going to 'buy' in apparently. Entice your buyers somehow to provide a pic or two. It appears the perception is you are just making your jackets for shits and giggles and no one is actually buying them? I use the Facebook page to see the latest offerings from BK. I use the website pics that others post to see the latest from GW. And for the most part I just use Google. That links me to everything everyone is posting. Some want it all laid out for them in forum, so be it. My jacket buying has tapered off of late. After grabbing the original Bronco from Aero I thought I was done. Only opportunity buys these days. A few good used Buzz Rickson jackets from Yahoo, a Good Wear USL via the forum and a RMNZ Dubow from eBay. I am not sure if others are forging ahead as they used to. Perhaps this is a cause of the concern for all vendors. Credit Card chargebacks are security enough for me when I purchase anything. I don't sweat the little things. Rockets and rogue Afghans are my only worry for the time being. I have an ELC Air Comfort somewhere in Milwaulkee that I am not sure if I will ever see again. Meh? Not worth losing sleep or hair over. Bigger things in life to worry about than a jacket. Just have fun making your jackets....and take pride in it. I think I enjoy badging my repro WWII M41s and M43s more than wearing them at events. And none of my A-2 jackets ever see the light of day. Until next year when the climate changes on posting to Sydney. Then I might bust out the Hartmann...
Rest! Relax!
Couchy
You are never going to win this one. Apparently the reviews and pics on VLJ from buyers who take the time to post, as recently as today, are not enough. When the Mods at the Fedora Lounge close it down they just start the barrage in this direction. A wait for hides is unsatisfactory. A longer wait for a queue is fine. Adopt that strategy perhaps. There are fewer of ANY style of jacket popping up these days as reviews or 'shares'. Regardless of anyone's leanings. Until you start a Gallery on the website nobody is going to 'buy' in apparently. Entice your buyers somehow to provide a pic or two. It appears the perception is you are just making your jackets for shits and giggles and no one is actually buying them? I use the Facebook page to see the latest offerings from BK. I use the website pics that others post to see the latest from GW. And for the most part I just use Google. That links me to everything everyone is posting. Some want it all laid out for them in forum, so be it. My jacket buying has tapered off of late. After grabbing the original Bronco from Aero I thought I was done. Only opportunity buys these days. A few good used Buzz Rickson jackets from Yahoo, a Good Wear USL via the forum and a RMNZ Dubow from eBay. I am not sure if others are forging ahead as they used to. Perhaps this is a cause of the concern for all vendors. Credit Card chargebacks are security enough for me when I purchase anything. I don't sweat the little things. Rockets and rogue Afghans are my only worry for the time being. I have an ELC Air Comfort somewhere in Milwaulkee that I am not sure if I will ever see again. Meh? Not worth losing sleep or hair over. Bigger things in life to worry about than a jacket. Just have fun making your jackets....and take pride in it. I think I enjoy badging my repro WWII M41s and M43s more than wearing them at events. And none of my A-2 jackets ever see the light of day. Until next year when the climate changes on posting to Sydney. Then I might bust out the Hartmann...
Rest! Relax!
Couchy
John Lever
Moderator
Come on Platon,let's see a photo of you in one of your jackets, and maybe even a first name so we can get to know you better ? Some photos of the factory and the people there would also be interesting.
unclegrumpy
Well-Known Member
In a very simplistic way Platon, the customers you mention can be broken down into two groups....sophisticated in their knowledge and not.
It appears you are doing well with the less sophisticated group. That is not to say you can't do well with the more knowledgeable, but they are going to be much tougher to win over because they are much more experienced in what they are looking at, and also likely more skeptical from the experience of past disappointments.
While you may be right in all you say about your use of the tailor torso, I think fit with most vintage styled leather jackets, especially A-2s, can be rather illusive. There are a lot of factors in what people think is a good fit today, and the more originally sized and cut an item is, the greater the confusion, because things were sized and worn differently back then.
Another thing that is worth considering is it took many years for both Eastman and GW to get to where they are today.
It appears you are doing well with the less sophisticated group. That is not to say you can't do well with the more knowledgeable, but they are going to be much tougher to win over because they are much more experienced in what they are looking at, and also likely more skeptical from the experience of past disappointments.
While you may be right in all you say about your use of the tailor torso, I think fit with most vintage styled leather jackets, especially A-2s, can be rather illusive. There are a lot of factors in what people think is a good fit today, and the more originally sized and cut an item is, the greater the confusion, because things were sized and worn differently back then.
Another thing that is worth considering is it took many years for both Eastman and GW to get to where they are today.
ausreenactor
Well-Known Member
unclegrumpy said:
Deja vu..
Take note BK owners...ya dumb bastards? :?
How did these amateurs ever move a jacket without pics of customers and size comparisons?
And that line...where the guy is dubious about buying a jacket with a hefty wait and not knowing what the jacket will look and fit like. He states boldly he will buy one that will get made in about a year, from leather that is probably still running around in a paddock with a heartbeat.. :lol: :lol: :lol: I explained this situation to a room full of my Army Aircrew peers and they asked if I was serious. Amazing what non jacket 'outsiders' think of this.
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Anonymous
Guest
ha ha, I think you guys read one post a week and then reply whatever. Don't care to read any of the threads, so how can you expect to get the complete picture? I have already shown some fit photos on the other thread. Or they don't count because are mine?
I say BK jackets quality/price are unbeatable. You find that insulting?
I say I can send out jackets to anyone who wants to try them on, check the fit quality, whatever. Only requirement, gotta be someone size 40 'cause that the size we make the sample jackets.
Scott, I am sure that if you buy a Kelso, "you will become a true believer" an ambassador for Kelso.
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Anonymous
Guest
unclegrumpy
Well-Known Member
ausreenactor said:
Come on Couchy, you know I am not saying that.
What is clear from Platon's posts, is most of his sales have been from what I categorized as the less sophisticated buyers. That does not mean they are getting any less of a jacket, they just don't have the knowledge base....or as Platon has said, the desire to comment at all.
What is going to help Platon more than anything else is getting his jackets into the hands of guys like you that have the knowledge and experience to comment on them in a meaningful way.
Seeing real world pictures of people wearing his jackets, and what they look like once they get some actual wear, is going to make a big difference. Until then, there is really not much data to base valid comparisons on.
