• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Bill kelsos free jacket by another maker guarantee.

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
Bill kelsos free jacket by another maker guarantee.

"Bill Kelso Mfg WARRANT that the TYPE A-2 jackets produced are more accurate and close to the originals than those of any other manufacturer worldwide, including Japan. If a customer compares an original vs a Bill Kelso TYPE A-2 jacket of the same contract and can show evidence that Bill Kelso’s jacket is not an accurate reproduction of original, or that another maker offers a better reproduction, then Bill Kelso Mfg will accept the jacket for return and refund. Furthermore, Bill Kelso Mfg agrees to replace the jacket with one from the maker who is found to make the best reproduction. (The above excludes comparisons involving Crown zippers which are not available from Bill Kelso Mfg.)"

I doubt anyone has able been able to do this or it ever happening because I don't think BK would ever admit to an inferior jacket, it would in all likelihood have to be settled in an English court at great expense if you lost the case.
"15. English Law to apply"

What expert witnesses would have the time or inclination to attend the court case, those that might would be expecting a hefty fee and you would have to pay to get them to England and their accommodation etc.
You would already have to have the same jacket by another maker. unless somebody is willing to loan you a jacket

If you won the lottery and felt you had to prove a point it would be feasible.

You would get a refund and a jacket from the other maker for free and would only be out of pocket for the S&H.
The problem is your evidence for the court case has now been retuned to BK by the terms and conditions.

5. Replacement or Refund. Currently, we will only be able to take returns only on jackets that were made incorrectly. If you are not satisfied with our goods for reason of inaccuracy or defect in the manufacture, they can be replaced, or alternative a full money refund (less Shipping & Handling) will be made, provided that they are shipped back within 7 calendar days from the date that the customer received the goods, that they are UNWORN (except for trying on purposes of course) and in the same condition as when sent. (Exposure to cigarette smoke, perfume or any other odor will be regarded as WORN).
 
Last edited:

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
Any competent lawyer would have a field day with some of the statements if they actually not true.
Consumer law is usually based on what would it would be reasonable to expect if an average consumer reads advertising or manufacturer's claims rather than legalistic tomjiggery.
 
Last edited:

silvio76

Well-Known Member
Bill kelsos free jacket by another maker guarantee.

"Bill Kelso Mfg WARRANT that the TYPE A-2 jackets produced are more accurate and close to the originals than those of any other manufacturer worldwide, including Japan. If a customer compares an original vs a Bill Kelso TYPE A-2 jacket of the same contract and can show evidence that Bill Kelso’s jacket is not an accurate reproduction of original, or that another maker offers a better reproduction, then Bill Kelso Mfg will accept the jacket for return and refund. Furthermore, Bill Kelso Mfg agrees to replace the jacket with one from the maker who is found to make the best reproduction. (The above excludes comparisons involving Crown zippers which are not available from Bill Kelso Mfg.)"

I doubt anyone has able been able to do this or it ever happening because I don't think BK would ever admit to an inferior jacket, it would in all likelihood have to be settled in an English court at great expense if you lost the case.
"15. English Law to apply"

What expert witnesses would have the time or inclination to attend the court case, those that might would be expecting a hefty fee and you would have to pay to get them to England and their accommodation etc.
You would already have to have the same jacket by another maker. unless somebody is willing to loan you a jacket

If you won the lottery and felt you had to prove a point it would be feasible.

You would get a refund and a jacket from the other maker for free and would only be out of pocket for the S&H.
The problem is your evidence for the court case has now been retuned to BK by the terms and conditions.

5. Replacement or Refund. Currently, we will only be able to take returns only on jackets that were made incorrectly. If you are not satisfied with our goods for reason of inaccuracy or defect in the manufacture, they can be replaced, or alternative a full money refund (less Shipping & Handling) will be made, provided that they are shipped back within 7 calendar days from the date that the customer received the goods, that they are UNWORN (except for trying on purposes of course) and in the same condition as when sent. (Exposure to cigarette smoke, perfume or any other odor will be regarded as WORN).
"Modesty" is virtue of BK.
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
The only effective method of getting any makers spurious claims removed from their websites is the make a complaint with the relevant authority in the country to whose laws they are subject to and costs nothing but your time.
When faced with a fine or prosecution for false statements they will rapidly be removed.
Might be an interesting way to occupy yourself if you are retired or have a lot of time on your hands and it really bothers you.
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
It's a marketing angle, a gimmick, that's all.

Because it's based on opinion it's probably impossible to objectively win and I'd imagine especially from a legal angle.

It's a crock really because it's just blather. It's like BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine", just corporate dick pulling.
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
It's a marketing angle, a gimmick, that's all.

Because it's based on opinion it's probably impossible to objectively win and I'd imagine especially from a legal angle.

It's a crock really because it's just blather. It's like BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine", just corporate dick pulling.

Yes certainly but as I said the ammunition provided for a canny lawyer is like a gift of gold.

"That said, we GUARANTEE that you will find our jackets (both A-2 and Civilian) to be better reproductions of the originals than those made by ANY other repro maker WORLDWIDE. The reason is simply that although others may use original patterns and correct hardware, their leathers are completely off as they use the tanneries’ modern leather offerings and not leathers tanned in the vintage way, like we do. As a result, no matter how well made, their jackets will appear clearly different than originals (simple side-by-side comparison with originals is enough to show that), so a more suitable description for them would be “vintage inspired” and not exact reproductions of the originals like ours are.'

I am no legal expert but if you started a court case on the basis you where deceived as a consumer by an untrue statement and a replacement jacket by another maker was refused the onus in court would on BK to prove that "Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true."
If nobody else makes a jacket better you cannot win, outside of my expertise to make a call on that.

"Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true." Is something I should have included in the first post for context and goes beyond the claims others use.
 

Smithy

Well-Known Member
Yes certainly but as I said the ammunition provided for a canny lawyer is like a gift of gold.

"That said, we GUARANTEE that you will find our jackets (both A-2 and Civilian) to be better reproductions of the originals than those made by ANY other repro maker WORLDWIDE. The reason is simply that although others may use original patterns and correct hardware, their leathers are completely off as they use the tanneries’ modern leather offerings and not leathers tanned in the vintage way, like we do. As a result, no matter how well made, their jackets will appear clearly different than originals (simple side-by-side comparison with originals is enough to show that), so a more suitable description for them would be “vintage inspired” and not exact reproductions of the originals like ours are.'

I am no legal expert but if you started a court case on the basis you where deceived as a consumer by an untrue statement and a replacement jacket by another maker was refused the onus in court would on BK to prove that "Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true."
If nobody else makes a jacket better you cannot win, outside of my expertise to make a call on that.

"Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true." Is something I should have included in the first post for context and goes beyond the claims others use.

The problem lies in it being objectively quantifiable and I just don't think that's possible.

As I said it's just marketing hype. Admittedly they've taken it a bit further with that ridiculous "guarantee" but they all spout on about being the "nearest" (Aero) or "perfect" (ELC) reproduction of the real thing.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
Yes certainly but as I said the ammunition provided for a canny lawyer is like a gift of gold.

"That said, we GUARANTEE that you will find our jackets (both A-2 and Civilian) to be better reproductions of the originals than those made by ANY other repro maker WORLDWIDE. The reason is simply that although others may use original patterns and correct hardware, their leathers are completely off as they use the tanneries’ modern leather offerings and not leathers tanned in the vintage way, like we do. As a result, no matter how well made, their jackets will appear clearly different than originals (simple side-by-side comparison with originals is enough to show that), so a more suitable description for them would be “vintage inspired” and not exact reproductions of the originals like ours are.'

I am no legal expert but if you started a court case on the basis you where deceived as a consumer by an untrue statement and a replacement jacket by another maker was refused the onus in court would on BK to prove that "Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true."
If nobody else makes a jacket better you cannot win, outside of my expertise to make a call on that.

"Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true." Is something I should have included in the first post for context and goes beyond the claims others use.
As you say we are not lawyers however “ I guarantee” :) ( see what I did there);) that unless you have money to burn none of this would be worth your time or effort and an attorney would probably not take your case . However , the possibility that somehow, someone would step up and take issue with all this does put a smile on your face and make you think “what if”.:)
 

foster

Well-Known Member
Anyone willing to pursue such a claim would be the same type of person who had already done the research and due diligence to know which vendors offer the best replicas / reproductions in the first place.

Cheaper in the long run to invest some time in research before buying from any vendor, than to get into a legal battle which requires the same knowledge from the buyer.
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
Anyone willing to pursue such a claim would be the same type of person who had already done the research and due diligence to know which vendors offer the best replicas / reproductions in the first place.

Cheaper in the long run to invest some time in research before buying from any vendor, than to get into a legal battle which requires the same knowledge from the buyer.

Just a "what if' pondering.
 

mulceber

Moderator
Tbh, this is a bit tiresome. Calling out Aero's marketing claims was easily the least interesting part of ZuZu's thread on Aero accuracy, and it isn't any more interesting when it's BK. All of the high-end jacket makers claim that they make the most accurate reproduction. It's all marketing buzz, even when it's given legalistic phrasing like this. And it's not totally wrong - there was a ton of variation within contracts, and so most of the stuff we could point to as "inaccurate" does show up on originals here and there.

Plus, leaving aside all the things other people have pointed out, if you bought a jacket from BK deliberately looking to find fault with it and get a free jacket out of them, they could rightly claim in court that you entered into the contract in bad faith, which would at least make you look really bad in front of the judge.

Can we just stop dredging up makers' claims that they make the best jacket? I'm perfectly happy to have a conversation about how accurate the jackets actually are, but treating their marketing buzz like a serious claim is not very productive or interesting.
 

Steve27752

Well-Known Member
Tbh, this is a bit tiresome. Calling out Aero's marketing claims was easily the least interesting part of ZuZu's thread on Aero accuracy, and it isn't any more interesting when it's BK. All of the high-end jacket makers claim that they make the most accurate reproduction. It's all marketing buzz, even when it's given legalistic phrasing like this. And it's not totally wrong - there was a ton of variation within contracts, and so most of the stuff we could point to as "inaccurate" does show up on originals here and there.

Plus, leaving aside all the things other people have pointed out, if you bought a jacket from BK deliberately looking to find fault with it and get a free jacket out of them, they could rightly claim in court that you entered into the contract in bad faith, which would at least make you look really bad in front of the judge.

Can we just stop dredging up makers' claims that they make the best jacket? I'm perfectly happy to have a conversation about how accurate the jackets actually are, but treating their marketing buzz like a serious claim is not very productive or interesting.
Well said, I agree 100%
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
Tbh, this is a bit tiresome. Calling out Aero's marketing claims was easily the least interesting part of ZuZu's thread on Aero accuracy, and it isn't any more interesting when it's BK. All of the high-end jacket makers claim that they make the most accurate reproduction. It's all marketing buzz, even when it's given legalistic phrasing like this. And it's not totally wrong - there was a ton of variation within contracts, and so most of the stuff we could point to as "inaccurate" does show up on originals here and there.

Plus, leaving aside all the things other people have pointed out, if you bought a jacket from BK deliberately looking to find fault with it and get a free jacket out of them, they could rightly claim in court that you entered into the contract in bad faith, which would at least make you look really bad in front of the judge.

Can we just stop dredging up makers' claims that they make the best jacket? I'm perfectly happy to have a conversation about how accurate the jackets actually are, but treating their marketing buzz like a serious claim is not very productive or interesting.

I may be wrong but as far as I aware only one person claims to be the best in the world and backs it up with "Every single statement made in our website is absolutely true." how is that not a serious claim going far what beyond that others say and not worthy to call out.
We consider, probably, close to etc are hardly in that league.

Whom of all the high end jacket manufactures claim to make the accurate jacket in existence please enlighten me if I have it wrong.

Eastman: We Specialise in making extremely authentic, high quality reproductions of WWII vintage flight jackets and accessories.

Good wear Q: Everyone says their jackets are authentic. What makes your jackets authentic?
A: No reproduction is perfect, and certainly our jackets aren't (and originals aren't perfect or all that consisten, either!). But, we want to make reproductions that are very close, as much as possible, to the contract that we're copying.

Diamond Dave: This new line of jackets are based on those that would have been thrown at a raw cadet during training. They are meant to emulate the original jackets, faults and greatness included. The original jackets were made in large quantities and generally in a great hurry by experienced seamers and cutters. If you are looking for the laser straight perfection of a Japanese reproduction, these jackets may not be for you. That said, if you are interested in something special, that is made to the standards of the Army Air Corps and the AN inspectors on site, then this is the product for you. After all, it was "good enough for government work

Lost worlds Go to our collection and see our cherished originals: which appear better-made, those or ours? We try to surpass, not equal. It's our way of honoring our forebears. It's what Americans are supposed to do.

Please explain why there is is a difference between pointing out jacket faults and pointing out false statements [if indeed they are, I did not say they where].
So what if somebody not knowledgeable buys a BK on the basis of those statements and there is something better tough luck it's your own fault.
False statements to induce people to buy [once again i will say if they are, I took no stand on that] are not okay for me.
Because someone mat be less informed than others or is more gullible is partly why consumer protection laws exist.
BK jackets stand on their own merits and there's no need for all that.
If you are not interested in such things thats up to you.
 
Last edited:

mulceber

Moderator
All of those sound to me like they're of a kind with each other. BK's is the most hyperbolic, but anyone who has talked to Andy knows he likes to talk in superlatives.

I find these debates uninteresting because they're pointless. Nothing you do here is going to stop Andy from saying exactly what he wants on his website. It's basically shouting into the wind. If you're interested in helping newbies who might buy a jacket from them and realize BK jackets aren't perfect only after the fact, then the best (and most interesting) thing to do would be to start a thread comparing BK repros to originals, like ZuZu did with Aero. (except, you know, maybe with less anger and insults than that one had...)
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
Guys I certainly respect all of your opinions and agree with many of them. However, I think what many people are saying is that this thread has been , discussed , rediscussed, tossed , turned and digested 10 times over if not more. There just comes a point where everything has been said and you’re now dealing with “ Over skill” . Sadly ... we reached that point about 2 days ago.
Now comes my normal disclaimer . This is just my personal opinion and it does not reflect or claim to portray the opinions of any other members of this forum:)
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
This a forum that is supposed to question such things, I like you doubt much said here will change what makers do with a few exceptions who are not averse to well meant suggestions to improve and with BK it would be an exercise in futility.
"As a result, no matter how well made, their jackets will appear clearly different than originals (simple side-by-side comparison with originals is enough to show that), so a more suitable description for them would be “vintage inspired” and not exact reproductions of the originals like ours are."

Court will adjourn.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
“Members of the jury.... what say ye one and all......guilty or not guilty””!!!
;)
It just seemed like a fitting end to this thread....:rolleyes:
 
Top