Army A-2 is officially official

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
I know the Army has had troubles keeping/getting chopper pilots, perhaps giving them some style could help?
Talking to the Army pilots and the contractor pilots in Kandahar.. The money and the stuff arounds are the big difference. Contractors could buy a new A-2 every pay fortnight.

Hell our Trooper was on more money than 'Eagle 6' back in 2008! Aussie PTE vs 5-101 LTCOL....
 

dinomartino1

Well-Known Member
US army

US Army 2019 private [E2] highest pay rate without allowances USD 22,608
Australian Army private
highest pay rate USD 68,298
1.00 AUD = 0.76 USD


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Australia 2019 1.00 AUD = 0.76 USD
Workplace Remuneration Arrangement 2% increase from 14 November 2019

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    You’ll need to have obtained a level of tertiary qualifications for your specialist area of expertise – and qualify for registration with the relevant Australian registration body/authority prior to appointment. You’ll also need to have completed a level of military commissioning equivalent to the Specialist Service Officer course conducted at the Royal Military College – Duntroon.
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ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
Have to add the $15K service allowance to every wage in that spreadsheet.

And in 2013 the AUD$1 was USD$1.07. We made a killing, figuratively and literally. I earned more in 2013 as a SGT than I did in 2019 as a WO2! Benefits dropped considerably.

Did get cheap shipping from At The Front so it evened out! ;)
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
In my Guard unit (circa mid/late-90’s), right around when my flight school slot came through, I had a good IT career going, had gotten married and bought a place. Before I declined, I remember taking a pause and looking at what all of the Aviators did for a living.

Many of them were police dept pilots.
One was a corporate helicopter pilot
A few were firefighters.
A few were non-flying police officers (waiting for the Vietnam era police pilots to retire)
Several were full time Guard bums at the Army Aviation Support Facility or Aviation Brigade
A bunch of guys were construction contractors
A few worked for DoD or other federal Gov’t jobs
1 High School Teacher
1 stockbroker
1 Software engineer
A few were involved in business, but nothing aviation related
And one (1) airline pilot, 737 FO


I also knew quite a few Air Guard pilots, all in A-10s or Hercs. With very few exceptions, they were all airline pilots. Hell, I think a few of the enlisted were also airline or Corporate jet pilots.

No point to this. Just my recollections.


RTAG has changed that perception. It’s a group of mostly Army folk that have shown the airlines that we actually can fly too lol.
 

FtrPlt

Member
I know the Army has had troubles keeping/getting chopper pilots, perhaps giving them some style could help?
Love how history repeats itself! This was the exact 'retention solution' USAF came up with in 1988 and the return of the A-2! Back then, you couldn't wear it flying. F-15 guys refused to wear it in protest. Not sure if that's still the case.
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
I don’t think it’s a retention thing for aviators. They’ve shown they don’t care about that stuff. It’s more about the SMA and his Band of Brothers fetish (which I fully support).

I can’t even drive a car in a Cooper A-2, much less fly.


Love how history repeats itself! This was the exact 'retention solution' USAF came up with in 1988 and the return of the A-2! Back then, you couldn't wear it flying. F-15 guys refused to wear it in protest. Not sure if that's still the case.
 

Hobbstc

Active Member
The Army is killing their own recruiting and retention every day. Now there’s a 10yr obligation instead of 6 after graduation. So anybody in 10yrs or more won’t transfer because it’ll make them stay over 20. Which means mostly junior enlisted who are tired of marching and OCS/college guys who definitely plan on making the army a full career. In addition the optempo for every other branch has slowed considerably except aviation. Even on the guard side, we got back in 17 and that unit is set to go again soon.

And per the post above about jobs, I’m a National Guard HH60 pilot and a lobbyist for my real job.
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
It just shows how arbitrary the rules can be. I specifically remember reading an Aviation Digest article in the early 90's that defended the flight school age cutoff by talking about how ridiculous it would be to send a 50 year old CW4 into combat (articles like that are always written by a pair of 28 year old Captains). I had to have my packet in by age 26 1/2 in order to start by age 29, which was the cutoff. Later they raised the age to 39 or 40, and you had senior NCOs going. I heard of several cases where NCOs became a maintenance warrant officers, then managed to go to flight school as CW2s - unthinkable in the 90's.

The Army is killing their own recruiting and retention every day. Now there’s a 10yr obligation instead of 6 after graduation. So anybody in 10yrs or more won’t transfer because it’ll make them stay over 20. Which means mostly junior enlisted who are tired of marching and OCS/college guys who definitely plan on making the army a full career. In addition the optempo for every other branch has slowed considerably except aviation. Even on the guard side, we got back in 17 and that unit is set to go again soon.

And per the post above about jobs, I’m a National Guard HH60 pilot and a lobbyist for my real job.
 

FtrPlt

Member
The 10 year obligation simply aligns the Army with the other branches service obligations. Personally, I think it's too much. When I did my flight training, it was 4 years. Ten years is a big ask of a 20 year old. Nearly 20 years of non-stop combat operations isn't helping.
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
The 10 year obligation simply aligns the Army with the other branches service obligations. Personally, I think it's too much. When I did my flight training, it was 4 years. Ten years is a big ask of a 20 year old. Nearly 20 years of non-stop combat operations isn't helping.
Way too much. Isn't it like 5 years for a service academy?

They should not equate the value of the flight training a USAF C-5 pilot receives to that of Army RW.
 

Hobbstc

Active Member
I honestly don't know the answer to this question for there other branches, but at least in the Army, I'd say over 50% of our pilots are prior service which means asking 10 more years and multiple future combat deployments on top of what they already have done is a lot to ask.
 

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
I have nine years until retirement. That is tied to a pension I have funded since 1991. I have pulled it from investment strategy to cash and back again and I look at the unit values every day. In the market dive in in the early stages of 2020 I held value and picked up thousands of units along the way. I am on a good wage but I am struggling to work out how to stay motivated for the rest of my service. I have submitted my packet for CAPT but that might be with a pay decrease.. which will adversely impact the final average salary that drives the retirement benefits. I will need to gamble on MAJ and sub unit command for my last three years to kick it up a bit.

I have been asked to move to aircrew multiple times; however, my chain says they can use someone else to exploit my potential for more than 2.0 or 3.0 hours per day.. Whatever that means. Flying allowance is not included in the retirement benefits or I would have done that in 2006...

We are getting more recruits but the attrition is still there. Our unemployed saved more money than ever with stimulus bonuses from our Government. Jobs everywhere at the moment but nobody needs a job? Wait until March when the bonuses stop. The retention might improve and we might get a better standard of recruit...

Our aircrew are happy to sign on for the six years. They spend nearly three years getting their wings!
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
I think the 10 years for Army and whatever is is for other services starts after the completion of flight training. I might be wrong.

So that means a Junior NCO with 5 years can expect another 1 to 1.5 years for flight school, then their 10 starts ticking. At 16.5 years and rank of CW3 or Major, aren’t you finishing 20?
 

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
I think the 10 years for Army and whatever is is for other services starts after the completion of flight training. I might be wrong.

So that means a Junior NCO with 5 years can expect another 1 to 1.5 years for flight school, then their 10 starts ticking. At 16.5 years and rank of CW3 or Major, aren’t you finishing 20?
20 and done. That would be great! 22 behind me with 9 to go.....
 

Hobbstc

Active Member
I think the 10 years for Army and whatever is is for other services starts after the completion of flight training. I might be wrong.

So that means a Junior NCO with 5 years can expect another 1 to 1.5 years for flight school, then their 10 starts ticking. At 16.5 years and rank of CW3 or Major, aren’t you finishing 20?
That is correct, 10 years at completion of flight school.
 

Ed Rooney

Well-Known Member
What does an officer do as aircrew in your world?

In the US Army, we had some aerial observers who were artillery officers. They did essentially the same course of instruction as we did as enlisted observers, and I remember seeing some of them creeping around Shell field (the old “scout track” airfield at Fort Rucker) in 1990-91.

Beyond some maintenance warrant officers, all Army Aviation officers are pilots. There is no equivalent to USN/USAF navigators or NFOs. My 93B MOS was the closest thing. We were “non-rated”, yet sat at the left-seat controls and were required to have flying proficiency and take checkrides.

I have nine years until retirement. That is tied to a pension I have funded since 1991. I have pulled it from investment strategy to cash and back again and I look at the unit values every day. In the market dive in in the early stages of 2020 I held value and picked up thousands of units along the way. I am on a good wage but I am struggling to work out how to stay motivated for the rest of my service. I have submitted my packet for CAPT but that might be with a pay decrease.. which will adversely impact the final average salary that drives the retirement benefits. I will need to gamble on MAJ and sub unit command for my last three years to kick it up a bit.

I have been asked to move to aircrew multiple times; however, my chain says they can use someone else to exploit my potential for more than 2.0 or 3.0 hours per day.. Whatever that means. Flying allowance is not included in the retirement benefits or I would have done that in 2006...

We are getting more recruits but the attrition is still there. Our unemployed saved more money than ever with stimulus bonuses from our Government. Jobs everywhere at the moment but nobody needs a job? Wait until March when the bonuses stop. The retention might improve and we might get a better standard of recruit...

Our aircrew are happy to sign on for the six years. They spend nearly three years getting their wings!
 

ausreenactor

Well-Known Member
What does an officer do as aircrew in your world?

In the US Army, we had some aerial observers who were artillery officers. They did essentially the same course of instruction as we did as enlisted observers, and I remember seeing some of them creeping around Shell field (the old “scout track” airfield at Fort Rucker) in 1990-91.

Beyond some maintenance warrant officers, all Army Aviation officers are pilots. There is no equivalent to USN/USAF navigators or NFOs. My 93B MOS was the closest thing. We were “non-rated”, yet sat at the left-seat controls and were required to have flying proficiency and take checkrides.
Currently all Aviation officer positions are open to pilots only. There are some legacy commissions who occupy standards or admin roles. I had planned to commission to take up a 2IC role until they made the policy change. Etiquette states a new Chief of Army can not rescind policy changes, only the third Chief can?

I am the '15P' E-9. I have a refueller/ordnance peer at BDE HQ. We both wear the Chrome Army Aviation badge. Our enlisted Aircrewmen do to. They are like 'crew chiefs'; however, most are not technically proficient. Just 'meat mirrors'. Our maintainers are Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. The 'mafia' are a law unto themselves and drive rate of effort and tempo with their complex requirements and restrictions.

Air Force are flying focused and look after their aircrew. Army don't do it that well.

16 years on and we are finally moving to Apache. I said Tiger was the wrong choice from the outset. The British aviation industry has been killing it for overv100 years and they went Apache. Spoke volumes....
 
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