Anyone interested in Fivestar horsehide? 3 shades in progress..

[flyincowboy]

Yes most of them were chrome tanned and the leather tend to look stiff! Got some Horsehide reinforcement panels on my 5star B3 and they wrinkle like mad! the thickness is 1mm and too soft!

 

[mulceber]

Yes most of them were chrome tanned and the leather tend to look stiff!

You call this stiff? (Keep in mind, this is a class of cadets, so their jackets are still pretty new.)

Original A-2s were actually pretty pliable when they were made. They’ve stiffened a bit since then due to their age.

 

[flyincowboy]

The jacket used for mesurement is something like 70 years old and spendt most of his life in a suitcase hidden under a roof. Despite the fact that the leather was a little bit dry, he doesnt look like cardboard .But supple and stiff. Checking the thickness with a caliper inside the pocket we have 1mm2 /1mm3 maybe it's the thickness who give that stiff feeling

 

[s4rmark]

Definitely not keen on the seal brown, too dark for my taste. I was hoping for something that would be on the lines of Eastmans warhorse hide. Maybe my expectations were too high, but having said that, the quality of the workmanship and the price makes these jackets excellent value for the money.

 

[Kermit3D]

You call this stiff? (Keep in mind, this is a class of cadets, so their jackets are still pretty new.)

Original A-2s were actually pretty pliable when they were made. They’ve stiffened a bit since then due to their age.

This is the only real reproach I would make to Bill Kelso's leather (sorry for the off-topic), I find it a bit stiff compared to what we see on the photos of the 30s and 40s.
Indeed, the leather looked very soft.

 

[flyincowboy]

I really love the MIDDLE BROWN and the RUSSET COLOUR.

 

[CBI]

wow - the dark seal,looks excellent in re grain and character. might be too dark for some but me likey

 

[mulceber]

This is the only real reproach I would make to Bill Kelso's leather (sorry for the off-topic), I find it a bit stiff compared to what we see on the photos of the 30s and 40s.
Indeed, the leather looked very soft.

Yeah, that’s the unfortunate result of switching to vegetable tanned leather. It’s prettier, and it’s the correct thickness/weight, but it’s stiffer than the originals were out of the box and requires extensive breaking in before it softens up. A lot makers have to make that choice besides just BK.

 

[leper-colony]

wow - the dark seal,looks excellent in re grain and character. might be too dark for some but me likey

Yes, but matched to a refinished jacket. Not so accurate as an off the rack contract. BUT I bet peeps with custom projects will love it as an option.

 

[blackrat2]

Out of interest, would the leather on an original have swollen over the years, for example soaking up oil, grease and other day to day grime??

 

[CBI]

Yes, the seal would be for a re-dye match which is my favorite A-2 look.

 

[mulceber]

Out of interest, would the leather on an original have swollen over the years, for example soaking up oil, grease and other day to day grime??

That’s an interesting thought, @blackrat2, I don’t know the answer to that. I’d be interested to hear what people who know more about leather than I do have to say.

 

[Silver Surfer]

leather shrinks over the years. damn near every original I have handled has shrunk to some degree. some more than others, and some quite disproportionately. some repro makers base their a-2s on originals that have shrunk, and thus, their proportions are goofy. think of it this way: in order to make say a size 40 a-2 the shoulder span should be 18" [17.5 for dubows], front length: 21.5", chest 21.5" back length from the collar seam to back of leather: 21.5", add 2 3/4" for the cuffs [3"for dubows], sleeves 21.5 " from the shoulder seam to end of leather, add 2 3/4" for the waist band [3" for dubows]. there are variations for these measurements of course, but by my reckoning, most of the contractors used a formula that equated to the same measurements for the sleeves, chest,, front and back. this took the guess work out of making the a-2s.

 

[bseal]

You call this stiff? (Keep in mind, this is a class of cadets, so their jackets are still pretty new.)

Original A-2s were actually pretty pliable when they were made. They’ve stiffened a bit since then due to their age.

Point well made. Plenty of original A-2s had thin leather. Modern interpretations are just that.

 

[Smithy]

You call this stiff? (Keep in mind, this is a class of cadets, so their jackets are still pretty new.)

Original A-2s were actually pretty pliable when they were made. They’ve stiffened a bit since then due to their age.

Jan is absolutely correct. An original A-2 when issued would have had an exceedingly soft drape. Leather stiffens over time a great deal. The technical curator and I at the aviation museum I worked at talked about this very thing in relation to A-2s.

A lot of the high end makers use veg tanned stuff because it "looks" right but the drape of the stuff is very unlike what an A-2 issued in the 30s or 40s would have draped and felt like back when it was new or a few years old. I've harped on about this here numerous times but it's often an important characteristic that repros - even the high end ones usually miss.

 

[blackrat2]

Thanks for the answer about shrinkage, so I assume with shrinkage then if anything the leather would become thinner than when it was produced rather than tighten up but potentially swell?!...if that makes sense ??

 

[Kermit3D]

The leather of my cyclist jacket is very thin and soft and it behaves exactly like the picture.
But it's probably because it's cowhide leather.

I think we would be very surprised if we had the opportunity to handle a new A-2 jacket produced in the 30s and 40s.
Maybe the current brands that reproduce this jacket use a relatively stiff leather because they are based on originals that have hardened with age.

 

[flyincowboy]

Hard to say .... I am just worring about the leather thickness not the stiffness, does not want affording a jacket with such a thin leather to my opinion it will be to fragile to wear! Been told that Horsehide as a reputation to be tough.

 

[Smithy]

The leather of my cyclist jacket is very thin and soft and it behaves exactly like the picture.
But it's probably because it's cowhide leather.

I think we would be very surprised if we had the opportunity to handle a new A-2 jacket produced in the 30s and 40s.
Maybe the current brands that reproduce this jacket use a relatively stiff leather because they are based on originals that have hardened with age.

Perhaps but remember that the original A-2s were chrome tanned and in a process that isn't used now. Chrome tanning, even that used in modern (for the most part cheaper) leathers has a very noticeably softer hand and drape than veg tanned leather.

It might freak the snobs out, but cheap chrome tanned modern leather will almost be certainly far closer to the drape of an original A-2 jacket although the leather appearance will be too uniform. That's the trade off, modern veg tanned stuff looks the parts but has an incorrect drape and hand to the leather, modern chrome tanned leather has the right drape but the leather is too uniform in terms of how it looks.

With a modern jacket the catch 22 is that you really want how veg tanned leather looks but with the drape and hand of chrome tanned leather.

The quandary of the modern A-2 repro.

 

[Kermit3D]

I am not at all an expert in leather tanning processes, but from what I understand, chrome tanning is a very polluting process and is banned in many countries, right ?