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Active duty aircrew and wearing repros

A

Anonymous

Guest
Just wondering if those authorised to wear the Cooper A-2 would be allowed to wear an ELC or Good Wear instead. Would the velcro patches have to be on the jacket ? Would a 'naked' jacket with no decal etc be o.k. ?

Just curious. Wouldn't it be cool to see an aircrewman / fighter jock wearing a Good Wear or Eastman etc whilst fully rigged up ?! Or is the A-2 only o.k. to wear for transport and helo crews rather than fast jet jockeys ?

Thanks,
Dave
 

better duck

Well-Known Member
Funny: the exact same thought crossed my mind yesterday! I don't like the current issue "A2" variant very much with its very blousy shape and I too wondered, whether it would be OK to wear a GW Dubow or Roughwear for example.
 
I don't know about the Air Force but I'm pretty sure a lot of Navy Air Crew buy G-1s from Gibson & Barnes to wear on active duty. Wing Nut can answer that one... Oh, I forgot. He's been 86ed from here! :(
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I miss him too Bill. I may not have agreed with all of his non jacket opinions but still respected the guy immensely.

So apart from my original question about wearing repros whilst active duty and / or flying, when aer the issue G-1's and A-2's actually worn and by whom ?

Dave
 

Persimmon

Well-Known Member
Sorry for cutting in but as a newbie last December I am intrigued by what happened to Wing Nut.
Who was he and what went wrong
Oh and its a great question about them wearing or not Higher spec A2's.
Alan
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Persimmon said:
Sorry for cutting in but as a newbie last December I am intrigued by what happened to Wing Nut.
Who was he and what went wrong
Oh and its a great question about them wearing or not Higher spec A2's.
Alan

Al', I think you'll find what happened happened and there'as no need to go over old ground. Best left in the footlocker now.

Dave
 

Persimmon

Well-Known Member
Dave,
Did some research prior to your message reply.
Got the story and happy to leave the footlocker locked.
Now back to the real thread and sorry to have slightly derailed it.
Alan
 
sealbeachbum said:
I don't know about the Air Force but I'm pretty sure a lot of Navy Air Crew buy G-1s from Gibson & Barnes to wear on active duty. Wing Nut can answer that one... Oh, I forgot. He's been 86ed from here! :(


So does this mean that G+B has a pattern to make a modern-issue G-1? Case in point; The pocket flaps on the catalog G-1's are the graceful curves that went by the wayside by..what...1960 or so. Same with their throatlatch design...it's old-school. Nice, for sure..but not current. It would be nice to know that one could order a current-style G-1 from a quality maker like G+B. There are times whe I don't want to wear my ca. 1959/60
G-1 on the street, or leave it on a chairback, coatroom, etc.. I did have one sorta' crazy guy follow me down the street here in Boston, wanting to buy the jacket outright from me on the spot...and I know it's been eyed with malicious intent in mind before.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thanks for that Bill. Interesting.

If I understand correctly then, as long as there's velcro (or the correct patches) stitched directly to the jacket, a serving aircrewman (or woman) could wear an Eastman etc ?

I suppose the fact that they don't means that they think as little about their flight jackets as the originals of WW2 ! Although it would be great to see a high end repro in active duty use, eh ?

Dave
 

USMC_GAU-21

Member
Interesting question. But the active duty regulations are clear. Organizational Flight Gear Clothing may only be worn from an authorized DoD contractor which was procured through the DLA process.

Does not mean that Service members have not "purchased" PX, BX, other commercial sources, jacket items and worn them with their uniforms. They are just not following proper uniform regulations. The USAF might be different, but in the active USN/USMC Officer or Enlisted you must be "issued" your leather G-1 jacket, a NATOPS Jacket entry made, now a Service Record Book entry made for enlisted and a Officer Qualification Record entry made for Officers as to who and where issued them their G-1 jacket.

USN/USMC Uniform Regulations:
•NAVPERS 15665I Navy Uniform Regs SUMMARY OF CHANGES Jan 07

6803.2b(2). – Changed “(2) Brown Leather Jacket. Naval aviators, pilots, flight officers, undergraduate pilots, NFOs, and flight surgeons, Aerospace Experimental Psychologists, and Aerospace Physiologists may wear the leather flight jacket with flight suits, Service Khaki, Working Khaki, Winter Blue, Winter Working Blue, Aviation Working Green and Navy blue coveralls. If wearing Avia­tion Working Green, the option is provided to wear either the leather flight jacket or the green uniform blouse. Eligible enlisted aircrewmen, E7-E9, are authorized to wear the leather flight jacket with flight suits, Service Khaki, Working Khaki, Winter Blue, Winter Working Blue, Avia­tion Working Green and Navy blue coveralls. Eligible enlisted aircrewmen E6 and below are authorized to wear the leather flight jacket with flight suits, Utilities, Winter Blue, Winter Working Blue and Navy blue coveralls. Only direct point to point transit is appropriate when the flight jacket is worn to and from work with work­ing uniforms (excluding Navy blue coveralls, which may be worn in immediate working spaces only). Close zipper at least 3/4 of the way when worn. Management and control of leather flight jackets are outlined in <OPNAVINST 10126.4 series>.” (Jul 06 CD).

MCO P1020.34F MARINE CORPS UNIFORM REGULATIONS

7005. FLIGHT CLOTHING
1. Aviation clothing and equipment will be as supplied by the U.S. Navy and by the U.S. Marine Corps. Such clothing and equipment will be worn only when and as prescribed by commanders.

2. The flight suit will be worn with flight boots, green/black cushion-sole socks, green/brown crew-neck undershirt, garrison cap, black leather nametags, and no more than two CNO/CMC-approved unit/squadron patches. The flight suit is authorized for aircrew members outside the working/squadron areas subject to the same regulations that apply to the utility uniform.

3. The Flight Jacket may be worn with the service uniform only by those Marines who have been properly issued and are required to maintain an authorized flight jacket according to existing regulations. The flight jacket may be worn with the service "B," "C," and service with sweater uniforms. These uniform combinations will only be worn on base, or while traveling in a private/government vehicle between local military facilities, or to and from a domicile. While traveling outside a military installation no stops are permitted. The jacket will not be worn when the service "A" uniform is considered more appropriate, nor will it be worn on leave or liberty, or with the utility uniform or civilian clothing. When the flight jacket is worn with the service uniform, only one unit/squadron (CNO/CMC approved) patch may be worn. The patch, if worn, will be on the right front of the jacket, level with the nametape on the left side.

4. Listed are the four types of flight jackets authorized with the service uniform:
•a. Jacket, flying, men's intermediate, type G-1 (leather)
•b. Jacket, suits, flying, winter (green, poopie suit liner)
•c. Jacket, flyers, cold weather, fire resistant (AF CWU-45 sage green)
•d. Jacket, flyers, cold weather, fire resistant (AF CWU-36 sage green)

Please see the sentence in paragraph 7005, 2. that the jackets may only be sourced from the USN or USMC, no other commercial outlets.

Further more the OPNAV instruction clarifies the control and issue of the "Leather Flight Jacket":

OPNAV INSTRUCTION 10126.4C

From: Chief of Naval Operations

Subj: MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL OF LEATHER FLIGHT JACKETS

Ref: (a) NAVPERS 18068F (Manual of Navy Enlisted Manpower and Personnel Classifications and Occupational Standards)
(b) NAVSUP Publication 485, Vol. I

Encl: (1) Sample Command letter

1. Purpose. To issue the inventory and management policy and procedures for the control and accounting of leather flight jackets.

2. Cancellation. OPNAVINST 10126.4B

3. Background. The Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) has designated the traditional leather flight jacket as an exclusive clothing item for the service members specifically addressed in this instruction. To ensure its proper distribution, strict controls over procurement, stockage, issuance and disposition will be implemented and scrupulously maintained.

4. Policy. Leather flight jackets are authorized for issue and wear only by:
a. Naval aviators,
b. Naval flight officers (NFOs),
c. Naval flight surgeons, and
d. Navy and Marine Corps enlisted aircrew personnel, who
(1) have completed Naval Aircrew Candidate School, and
(2) have been assigned a Navy Enlisted Classification (NEC) Code series 78xx, 82xx, or 94xx as listed in reference a, or
(3) have been assigned a primary Marine Corps Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) in series 617x, 623x, 624x, 737x, 738x.

5. Procedures. Issue, disposition and reutilization of leather flight jackets will be as follows:
a. Issue. Leather flight jackets will be issued to the following personnel:

(1) Initial Issue:
(a) US undergraduate Navy pilots and NFOs upon completion of Aviation Pre-flight Indoctrination (API) at the Naval Aviation Schools Command (NASC), Naval Air Station, Pensacola (NASP);
(b) US Naval flight surgeons upon completion of the academic portion of the flight surgeon training program at the NASC;
(c) US Navy and Marine Corps enlisted aircrew personnel upon completion of the Naval Aircrewman Candidate School at the NASC.
(d) In lieu of completing Naval Aircrewman Candidate School, U.S. Navy selected reserve aircrew personnel may receive initial issue flight jackets provided paragraph 4 requirements are met and have a forwarding endorsement of such entitlement via Commander, Naval Air Reserve Force (COMNAVAIRESFOR)(N41) thus providing NASP with a single point of entry for this single exception case.

(2) Initial issue is normally accomplished at the Flight Gear Issuing Facility (FGIF), Building 3581, 690 San Carlos Road, NASP. During the initial issue process, the recipient will be entered into the FGIF leather flight jacket database for tracking. Additionally, the recipient's Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization (NATOPS) Flight Personnel Training/Qualification Jacket (OPNAV 3760/32) will be updated to reflect the issue.

(3) Reissue. Reissues require a "turn-in" leather flight jacket previously issued by the FGIF. If the jacket is unavailable for turn-in, a Missing, Lost, Stolen or Recovered Report (MLSR - DD Form 200) must be provided. Reference (b) provides general instructions on how to complete a DD Form 200. Additionally, a DD Form 1348-6 requisition and command letter personally signed by the commanding officer is required. Reference (b) provides guidance in preparing a DD Form 1348-6 requisition. Enclosure (1) is an example of a properly prepared command letter. Note: "By Direction" signatures are unacceptable and will be rejected.

b. Disposition. Final disposition of the jackets will be as follows:
(1) Personnel qualified to be issued and wear a leather flight jacket may retain their jacket when separating or retiring from the Naval Service under honorable conditions. These personnel, however, will not be authorized any subsequent issues or reissues after retirement or separation.
(2) Personnel not meeting the requirements of paragraph 5(b)(1) will turn in their flight jacket to the Supply Division, FGIF, 690 San Carlos Road, Building 3581, Naval Air Station, Pensacola, FL 32508-5014.
(3) Check-out procedures for departing personnel will include disposition of their jacket.

c. Reutilization. NASP shall attempt to maximize the reutilization of leather flight jacket turn-ins by re-issuing the jackets as "free issue" exchanges with authorized recipients.

6. Action

a. Commanding Officer, NASP
(1) Partner with the Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) to maintain adequate stores of leather flight jackets to support Navy and Marine Corps requirements.
(2) Institute procedures with the DLA so all requisitions for leather flight jackets originating from other services or from Navy activities other than NASP are rejected.
(3) Ensure NASP institutes procedures to remove the inside flap of the jacket on which "USN" or any other government markings are stenciled, prior to turn-in to the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office (DRMO).
(4) Ensure users, when directed, forward turn-ins of leather flight jackets via traceable means to NASP at the address listed in paragraph 5(b)(2). Include with each jacket a DD Form 1348-1 (with 2 copies) annotated with the name, rank (rate/rating/MOS), and social security number of the individual turning in the leather flight jacket. Reference (c) provides guidance in preparing a DD Form 1348-1 turn-in document.
(5) Arrange for security to prevent theft when shipping flight jackets, to include shipment of jackets by traceable means.
(6) Ensure that proper supply and security discipline relative to flight jacket management is exercised at NASP, including setting stock levels, establishing screening and disposition procedures, and developing strict requisition, receipt, and issue controls.
(7) Ensure that the Controlled Item inventory Code (CIIC) assigned to leather flight jackets is "V".

b. Commander, Naval Supply Systems Command (COMNAVSUPSYSCOM). Update appropriate supply publications with these procedures and controls.

c. Commanding Officer, NASC. Provide NASP with a personally signed letter listing the name, rank (rate/rating/MOS), and social security number of the students authorized issuance of a leather flight jacket.

d. COMNAVAIRESFOR (N41). Provide forwarding endorsement of entitlement for initial issue jacket for qualified SELRES Aircrew Candidates under paragraph 5a(1)(d).

e. Type/Air Wing Commanders. Ensure all requisitions for leather flight jackets are for qualified personnel and the accompanying letter is personally signed by the commanding officer. For re-issues, the old jacket, or DD Form 200 (personally signed by the commanding officer), or cash collection voucher discussed in paragraph 6(e)(5) below must accompany a valid DD Form 1348-6 requisition and an accompanying letter personally signed by the commanding officer.

f. Squadron/Station/Activity Commanding Officers.
(1) When officers/enlisted aircrew personnel are re-issued a leather flight jacket (or for initial issues for Navy SELRES enlisted aircrew), ensure that an entry is made in the individual's NATOPS Flight Personnel Training/Qualification Jacket (OPNAV 3760/32). When the issue is made as a result of a survey, the survey number will also be entered.
(2) Provide FGIF a personally signed copy of the disposition letter for personnel separating or retiring from the service under honorable conditions and retaining their flight jacket per paragraph 5(b)(1). Include the name, rank (rate/rating/MOS), and social security number of the individual.
(3) Recover leather flight jackets from officers/enlisted aircrew personnel leaving Naval Service as defined in paragraph 5(b)(2) or complete a DD Form 200. Forward the jacket via traceable means, stripped of all insignia and patches, to NASP for disposition. Include with each jacket a DD Form 1348-1 (with 2 copies) annotated with the name, rank (rate/rating/MOS), and social security number of the individual turning in the leather flight jacket.
(4) Upon discovery of a loss, immediately determine if there is evidence of negligence, willful misconduct, or deliberate unauthorized use. If there is, designate an officer to initiate a DD Form 200 unless the responsible individual voluntarily consents to reimburse the Government. In the case of voluntary reimbursement, a copy of the collection voucher will be used to support adjustments to the records.

So what does all this mean? :? :?

Well at least in the Navy/Marine Corps you can not run around in commercially made G-1 Leather flight jackets while in uniform in or out of the cockpit. Period.

Does it happen? Yes, but those Sailors and Marines are not following the regulations.

Long answer but the regulations are clear. I have had (2) issued G-1 jackets in my 22 year career, the first was a very nice 1970's heavy leather, and was stolen out of my helicopter in 1990. The other was a 1988 contract jacket that was "goat" very light weight and fit very large on me. But, it was what the issue point was issuing from the contract.

r/Gy Dan
 

watchmanjimg

Well-Known Member
This is quite fascinating. Dan, are they really saying that one could still wear the "WEP" or "poopie suit liner" as late as 2007? I thought those were long gone.
 

USMC_GAU-21

Member
Yes, the WEP jackets are still authorized for wear. I can't believe it either but I guess enough guys are still on active duty that were issued those jackets.

They are no longer available through the supply system, so they will go out due to attrition. But, "authorized" for wear.

r/Dan
 

capt71

Member
Thanks for the Navy regs. They seem to be a lot more specific than the AF regs.
Again, from the USAF uniform regs. Note especially under "Officers and Enlisted Personnel":

Table 1.2. How Members Acquire Uniform Items (see notes).
Members:
Enlisted Personnel:
Procure and maintain all mandatory clothing items listed in AFI 36-3014,
Clothing Allowances for Air Force Personnel. Request a civilian
clothing allowance in accordance with AFI 36-3014, when required to
wear civilian clothes, for reasons such as safety or security, to perform
assigned duties.
Officers:
Procure and maintain all items necessary to meet standards of dress for
assigned duties and mission requirements.
Officers and Enlisted Personnel:
Purchase items from the Army Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES)
Military Clothing Sales Stores (MCSS) supplied by the Defense Supply
Center Philadelphia (DSCP) or commercial vendors.
Purchase items from commercial vendors when items have a USAF
certification label.
Do not purchase uniform items from unauthorized manufacturers (note 3).

NOTES:
1. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the
intended appearance of garment as designed.
2. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its
wear.
3. If it is not authorized; it is not authorized for wear.

So, looks like obtaining an A-2 from a company other than the officially contracted one is ok, as long as the jacket is label-certified by the USAF.

Bill
 

USMC_GAU-21

Member
Capt71,

I read the reg's you posted on the USAF. I don't thing at last look Eastman, or any other of the excellent reproductions have the USAF approved for wear tag with a DLA stamp in it. So "no" they would not be able to purchase those jackets. Do they?.......... :cool: :cool: :cool:

But, the answer is still no, they are not allowed to open purchase an A-2 off the web, or other sources unless the garment is USAF approved.

Now as far as the cool factor? I would have loved to wear a Gibson G-1 while I was active, much better jacket....but oh well :(

r/Gy Dan
 

Stony

Well-Known Member
Private purchase jackets were worn by the USAAF during WWII, so I would think that if they met regulations you could wear one now. If that is so, then your mates would probably be somewhat jealous after seeing you wear a high end repro.
 

capt71

Member
USMC_GAU-21 said:
Capt71,Now as far as the cool factor? I would have loved to wear a Gibson G-1 while I was active, much better jacket....but oh well :( r/Gy Dan
Unfortunately, I was in and out of the Air Force before the A-2 was officially reinstated in 1988. while active duty then, I wouldn't have been an "authorized individual" to wear the jacket, but, believe me, I would have gotten hold of one!!

Here's a link about the A-2 history and modern day A-2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-2_jacket

Although Cooper was originally given the contract for the modern USAF A-2 (are they still doing that?), I see that Cockpit is claiming to be an "official" supplier also.
 

FlyingToastman

New Member
USMC_GAU-21 said:
Capt71,

I read the reg's you posted on the USAF. I don't thing at last look Eastman, or any other of the excellent reproductions have the USAF approved for wear tag with a DLA stamp in it. So "no" they would not be able to purchase those jackets. Do they?.......... :cool: :cool: :cool:

But, the answer is still no, they are not allowed to open purchase an A-2 off the web, or other sources unless the garment is USAF approved.

Now as far as the cool factor? I would have loved to wear a Gibson G-1 while I was active, much better jacket....but oh well :(

r/Gy Dan

Ok I work on WPAFB and this is what I see: In the A-2 Department Mostly the old Coopers, Branded, and the current version of the Avirex/Cockpit A-2. Lots of aircrew members that come in have opted to get those jackets. I have also seen a few san diego leather company jackets in use with velco on them as well.

concerning the G-1s that the Navy and Marine Corps that are stationed on WPAFB to go to AFIT or do otherstuff, I suspect I've seen a few senior personnel wear jackets from the outfit in Korea. Most have been modded and honestly unless you look at the label no one is going to notice.

Christos
 

USMC_GAU-21

Member
I am not saying it does not happen guys. I know it does. Lots of folks push the reg's it is a fact. I was just showing the regulations as they are stated.

I know lots of folks who have bought jackets that were not suppose to wear them and they did. Out of warmth, or the "coolness" factor.

Just wanted to show there are uniform regulations out there for our friend who asked the original question.

And, when I was a young LCpl, Cpl, I could not have afforded a nice repro anyways so I was happy with the G-1 issue I received.

Great discussion.

r/Gy Dan
 
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