A2 and shoulder holster

[taikonaut]

I recently acquired a shoulder holster by Engler Kress dated 1944, the type worn by pilots. I also happen to have a replica .44 Colt from my father which fires peas likewise I was interested to wear this in conjunction with my original A2s to get the feel, obviously I dont wear this in UK streets. It was rather uncomfortable to say the least but what is more astonishing is how much it takes up room inside the jacket. I would not entertain a tight fitted jacket with a shoulder holster let alone zipped even halfway up. My size 38 Perry did not stood a chance. However it fitted well with my size 38 Aero that has a 21.5 inch armpit to armpit measurement usually associated with a size 40. This raises some question about fits and why some chest measurement is bigger on certain jackets. I am starting to get the impression certain pilots, usually small guys wearing size 38, when they get a well made jacket which anticipate that they will be carring a shoulder holster & pistol, will have a one size up chest measurement. What do others think of this?

 

[watchmanjimg]

The shoulder holster was intended to be worn outside the jacket, so don't worry if it's a tight fit.

 

[taikonaut]

The shoulder holster was intended to be worn outside the jacket, so don't worry if it's a tight fit.

Are you sure about that? I guess it is probable but shouldnt discreet be part of the reason also that it doesnt catches on other gears if it was worn outside ?
I know some pilots has have inside pockets added to their A2 to put their pistols in.
I am quite sure in the film "Flying Leathernecks" they wore shoulder holsters over their shirt but under the cloth flight jackets if I remember correctly.

 

[watchmanjimg]

I'm fairly sure that for the most part concealed firearms have been forbidden by the US military for quite some time, although I've heard of Navy pilots unofficially carrying the .45 in the inner pocket of a G-1. In any case my point is that issue shoulder holsters such as the M-3 and M-7 were not designed for concealed wear and therefore I wouldn't evaluate the fit of a flight jacket based on whether the military holster fits underneath.

 

[zoomer]

My Navy PB4Y pilot friend wore a holster, but it was over his duds (jacket or flightsuit). He flew photo missions in Alaska, where there were bears and stuff.

 

[Swing]

The shoulder holster was intended to be worn outside the jacket, so don't worry if it's a tight fit.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, it's meant to be worn on the outside.

When flyers did carry side arms (which quite often they didn't, especially in the 8th AF) it seems they most often wore them at their waist.

~Swing

 

[zoomer]

COW-BOYS des NUAGES...naturellement!

 

[handworn]

A photo in that Hell-Bent For Leather book shows a pilot (named Lopez, I think) wearing a U.S. Army pistol belt with an ordinary .45 holster hooked to it, with his A-2.

 

[Vcruiser]

I agree. The military shoulder holster was worn on the outside.
VB

 

[taikonaut]

You all must be right because here is a doll that show the shoulder holster worn outside.

My assumption is that they were worn inside as it get in the way. Pilots do conceal their weapons during WW2 and there is flight jackets with inside pockets added, I have one and the Vet who wore it stated so. Also pilots sometimes conceal a pistol inside their flight boot.

 

[bfrench]

Hey, Guys,

Here's the proper way a holster and pistol were worn by the USAAC fighter pilots in 1941.

The picture is of none other than the heroic Captain William "Wild Bill" Kelso.

 

[Peter Graham]

My assumption is that they were worn inside as it get in the way. Pilots do conceal their weapons during WW2 and there is flight jackets with inside pockets added, I have one and the Vet who wore it stated so. Also pilots sometimes conceal a pistol inside their flight boot.

What reason would an airman have to conceal a firearm and what type of boot would conceal a Colt automatic ? Can you post a pic of the 'pistol pocket' in your A-2 ?

 

[taikonaut]

My assumption is that they were worn inside as it get in the way. Pilots do conceal their weapons during WW2 and there is flight jackets with inside pockets added, I have one and the Vet who wore it stated so. Also pilots sometimes conceal a pistol inside their flight boot.

What reason would an airman have to conceal a firearm and what type of boot would conceal a Colt automatic ? Can you post a pic of the 'pistol pocket' in your A-2 ?

They dont conceal guns from their squadrons, they were sanctioned by their own unit and have pockets fitted inside their A2 by their base workshop. If fallen behind enemy lines if your weapons were concealed the enemy would doubt the pilot is armed and would try to get to him as appose to shooting him. It may simply be not enough holsters going around so make do with adding inside pockets instead.

 

[T-Bolt]

Bill......what a cool avatar.......I like that one....alot!


Ted

 

[bfrench]

Bill......what a cool avatar.......I like that one....alot!


Ted

That was Wild Bill Kelso on his first solo.

 

[Chandler]

If fallen behind enemy lines if your weapons were concealed the enemy would doubt the pilot is armed and would try to get to him as appose to shooting him.

A. It was a war and any enemy soldier would be considered armed and dangerous. B. Shoulder holsters, especially the type used in the 40s (military or otherwise) aren't exactly "quick draw." An attempt to draw down on someone covering you with a Mauser 98, MP-40, or Arisaka would probably be pretty disastrous.

Chandler

 

[taikonaut]

If fallen behind enemy lines if your weapons were concealed the enemy would doubt the pilot is armed and would try to get to him as appose to shooting him.

A. It was a war and any enemy soldier would be considered armed and dangerous. B. Shoulder holsters, especially the type used in the 40s (military or otherwise) aren't exactly "quick draw." An attempt to draw down on someone covering you with a Mauser 98, MP-40, or Arisaka would probably be pretty disastrous.

Chandler

Capturing a live enemy is more valueable than a dead one. True shoulder holsters such as M3 arent quick draw, personally I feel the only advantage gained would be to conceal the gun. Still it appears they are worn outside the jacket. If I was in their position and if I could carry a gun in such a way I can conceal it without impeding that would be an option I prefer to take.

 

[Chandler]

Capturing a live enemy is more valueable than a dead one.

Shooting one instead of being shot by one is more valuable in the moment in time that you may find yourself in that situation.

Chandler

 

[taikonaut]

Capturing a live enemy is more valueable than a dead one.

Shooting one instead of being shot by one is more valuable in the moment in time that you may find yourself in that situation.

Chandler

Wouldnt avoiding it altogether be a better option if that was the case?
Think you are missing the point I made but do put yourself in the position of a pilot. You bailed out injured behind enemy lines. You cant fight all of Germany yourself. If you can shoot your way out then do it, if you cant you surrender hopefully to an enemy officer who put you in a POW camp. If you captured by civilians they may want to kill you in which point you may use or threaten them with a pistol. Having a concealed weapon gives the pilot option. Showing that you are armed reduces that option.

 

[Chandler]

Wouldnt avoiding it altogether be a better option if that was the case?
...Having a conceal weapon gives the pilot option. Showing that you are armed reduces that option.

Yes -- you bail out and do your best to avoid capture, being spotted by any of the enemy; civilian or military is a bad move, but if you're in uniform, you're already expected to be dangerous -- Most civilians will do their best to avoid you, hiding your weapon isn't going to make that big of a difference. Better to show it and keep them away than make believe you're unarmed and possibly have them approach you.

The point you're missing is that you'd do your best to escape, but also to defend yourself if threatened -- and that is not to play hide and seek games.

Remember what Swing said about all those pilots wearing their sidearms on their waists, they were more concerned about ready accessibility than concealment.

Chandler