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A Tale of Two Companies ...A Commentary on Business Development

ZuZu

Well-Known Member
I think there's a good balance to be struck. You're right that the differences between the high-end makers and the budget makers is noticeable, and if you have an eye for details and have spent a lot of time looking at originals, it's pretty hard to suspend your disbelief. I'm glad the budget makers are here, however: they always give us something new to talk about, and, tbh, not everyone has the ability or the inclination to spend GW or ELC prices on a jacket. If Five Star and AVI weren't on the scene, there's a lot of people who simply wouldn't be in this hobby, and that would be a shame.

I agree with what you say- but I think of all the "budget" makers Platon had the right idea- in fact I wish there were a budget maker who copied him with other contracts. J A Dubow really produces a good repro of the Dubow- and I think he prices were beyond fair. I like his whole sizing theory-( probably he should have been more flexible and because it's the 21st century make bigger jackets for bigger people) because it makes things simple and theoretically he could just make jackets of a size and have them on hand.

Avi and Five Star have a weird symbiotic realtionship with the forum which I think in the end could lead to some good stuff. But as long as it's a work in progress I don't want to spend my money there.
 
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mulceber

Moderator
Man, I'd love it if there was someone doing what Platon does, but for Rough Wears (maybe the 23380, since iirc it was made in both russet and seal). I'm not sure it would be financially viable though, as there wouldn't be that many repeat customers when you only offer one contract. I think it works for Platon because his company is basically the budget line for BK (they have the same paypal address). So if you get a Dubow and really like the workmanship and quality, the logical next step is to buy a Kelso. I'm not sure it would work as well as a stand-alone business. Sure would be cool though, if it worked!
 

Greg Gale

Well-Known Member
I think if we're comparing 5 Star and AVI, we need to be fair by stating the obvious:

Shawn makes the jackets himself, so he can implement feedback and improvements from one jacket to another.

Morten is a jacket enthusiast business man in Denmark, who has his jackets made by someone else - if I'm not mistaken, it's not him sitting by the sewing machine. This puts him at a serious disadvantage from this point of view.

I agree that Shawn's activity on the forums, openness to feedback and customer service has been exemplary. But let's be fair to Morten too, he's also doing pretty well, within his constraints. I have nothing but great experience dealing with him.

And in my subjective opinion, he really nails the fit of his jackets - maybe Shawn does too much customization that drives the jackets away from their original pattern, but all AVI A-2s that I've seen fit pretty great, especially recent ones. And the color of the hide is quite accurate too - although he could still improve his russet - Morten definitely did his homework.
 

jss0930

Member
I think if we're comparing 5 Star and AVI, we need to be fair by stating the obvious:

Shawn makes the jackets himself, so he can implement feedback and improvements from one jacket to another.

Morten is a jacket enthusiast business man in Denmark, who has his jackets made by someone else - if I'm not mistaken, it's not him sitting by the sewing machine. This puts him at a serious disadvantage from this point of view.

I agree that Shawn's activity on the forums, openness to feedback and customer service has been exemplary. But let's be fair to Morten too, he's also doing pretty well, within his constraints. I have nothing but great experience dealing with him.

And in my subjective opinion, he really nails the fit of his jackets - maybe Shawn does too much customization that drives the jackets away from their original pattern, but all AVI A-2s that I've seen fit pretty great, especially recent ones. And the color of the hide is quite accurate too - although he could still improve his russet - Morten definitely did his homework.

One of the reasons I own an Avi and not a Five Star is the fit. I’m a pretty standard size and I don’t want to send in detailed measurements to get a great fitting jacket. My Avi M422A seems nice to me and fits like a dream after I got the sleeves shortened, while I’ve seen a bunch of Five Stars that don’t look that great.
 

ZuZu

Well-Known Member
Man, I'd love it if there was someone doing what Platon does, but for Rough Wears (maybe the 23380, since iirc it was made in both russet and seal). I'm not sure it would be financially viable though, as there wouldn't be that many repeat customers when you only offer one contract. I think it works for Platon because his company is basically the budget line for BK (they have the same paypal address). So if you get a Dubow and really like the workmanship and quality, the logical next step is to buy a Kelso. I'm not sure it would work as well as a stand-alone business. Sure would be cool though, if it worked!

Being familiar with Greeks and Greece I can assure you we have no idea what's going on between those 2 entities and it will be a complete mystery for a long time. Platon jackets seem to me somehow different to BKs. I don't really think a BK jacket is any better than a Platon jacket... it's all quite strange. Both are miles ahead of AVI and 5 Star. IMO
 

Mr. Mike

Well-Known Member
I wish both (and perhaps all further to come) companies all the luck and success they deserve for their endeavors and different business plans as it surely will enrich this forum and its discussions. Outstanding (historic) authenticity combined with application of outstanding materials and craftsmanship don't come for free. I always wondered how Platon manages to challenge the top dogs in that narrow market. May it be because he is the budget line of BK may it be his focus on only one contract in two possible colors with only standard sizes. He made it to the top and deserved it.

However, if a budget offer/business plan can only be kept at the expense of labor and/or environment I tend to be out of the game. Apart from all the comparisons discussed in this forum on the various makers I always appreciated Gary still producing in GB and John sourcing his best hides from either US/Italy or Japan because it gave me at least some trust in fair trade conditions that apply in these countries. This of course also does not come without a price tag and may be delusive if you do not have full insight into the production chain.
 

Spitfireace

Well-Known Member
Foster they are a one in a million company Five Star that is . Firstly they came with a plan but no knowledge of flight jackets ,the plan may not have a happy ending to it . To invest so much money and time into a product to which they did not know if they would get a return on .The very fact purchasing what was needed to make the jackets would of been expensive ,because you do not buy in pack of ten you have to buy a thousand ,That is a thousand labels ,a thousand snaps and so on ,then you go to the members of the forum and say tell me how to make this .Then come back with a sample with pictures and ask what do you think ,only to be torn with this is not right and this is wrong and why did you do that .You see Shawn is a very special person in that respect ,his reply was thankyou let me make another one with your suggestions in mind . This forum is a tough crowd to please now your making all these jacket samples but your still not making money. In fact you have spent a lot of money and invested a lot of time in researching suppliers and samples and asking people to make things a certain way re leather colors and finish buckle castings .Now the jackets are coming along and some one points out the jackets do not hang right on the shoulders . All the while your on eBay trying to buy original jackets only to be told we do not ship to Pakistan ,we are still climbing up hill but Shawn does not give up . I know their are people behind the scene helping Shawn with many things to get him to where he needs to be and make it all worthwhile . Then we have the people on this forum who jump in with negative comments ,they probably have never made anything in their lives you know the type armchair Quarterbacks . So now we have arrived at Nicks Dubow and I see we surmounted the summit and have arrived ! stick a fork in me baby I am done .As I have said before its been a most interesting journey with the patience of a saint at the helm steering Five Star . Love it or hate it Five star has come full circle and achieved an ending to his plan ,the finesse comes now with the little tweaks to make it on par to what were his peers in the jacket world . I think he has arrived here is to hoping the investment of time money and material has paid off ,and repays Shawn with many orders . I will finish with saying a big thankyou to Ties who never ceases to amaze me with his skill , Shawn I cant think of a better man to guide you Ties that is thanks mate .

PS I am not sure who else has been helping Shawn if you have you have kept it quiet I also thank you .

BIP
It's kind of hard to tell what the motivation is. It's a niche market. If you are trying to please jacket purists, then you need all the top quality materials that the top tier makers use. Those are not available for any cheaper since they have to be sourced outside of Pakistan. By the time you are approaching a product that we are happy with on this site, your profit margins are probably not that high. As the quality/authenticity increases so must the prices.
 

MikeyB-17

Well-Known Member
I don’t have a jacket by either, I have come close to ordering a Five Star, but I have seen a couple of examples of horrendous, unacceptable flaws which have not been satisfactorily addressed. Last year, Maydaywei on this forum had a jacket supplied with a mouton collar in two bits, which were badly sewn together with pink thread (!!). Very recently, somebody on Facebook had a jacket supplied in the wrong size, despite providing measurements, and was offered a second one at 40% off-which I wouldn’t be happy with for a start. The replacement came with acrylic cuffs, and when he queried it, was told they had run out of wool ones. It’s this sort of thing that puts me off buying from them. Almost like they don’t realise stuff like that isn’t acceptable. I applaud what they’ve achieved, but quality control issues like that should not be happening, and don’t sound like they’re being dealt with as they should be.
 

Skyhawk

Well-Known Member
It's kind of hard to tell what the motivation is. It's a niche market. If you are trying to please jacket purists, then you need all the top quality materials that the top tier makers use. Those are not available for any cheaper since they have to be sourced outside of Pakistan. By the time you are approaching a product that we are happy with on this site, your profit margins are probably not that high. As the quality/authenticity increases so must the prices.
Motivation is to make money. In Pakistan, the leather jacket market is extremely competitive. There are tons of leather makers trying to carve an income out of an overloaded fashion industry. It makes perfect sense to branch out into other niches of relatively untapped markets.

They hit the gold mine when they found the forum. There were people here willing to hand feed them original WWII jackets for free to copy, and then critique the hell out of the resulting prototypes to help them improve. No need to go through thousands of hours and decades of research. Not to mention, spend tens of thousands of dollars in original jacket purchases to copy. In addition, they got the help to find sources for jacket parts from various obscure suppliers they they most likely would have never found, had they not been informed by those who knew.

Motherload.

They have gotten better at using more authentic parts but still have a long way to go. It doesn't seem to matter in the new Walmart / Amazon world where everyone wants to save a buck and are willing to excuse shortcomings in quality and authenticity to save that buck. This was especially true when they first began producing budget jackets with acrylic knits, modern snaps, inferior peeling leathers, bad mouton, inaccurate labels, the wrong model of cheap repro talon zips on everything.

Some of these issues still exist and yet they are not mentioned, or mentioned rarely with the excuse of how cheap the jacket is. Bad quality issues and wonky sewing are excused as "Wartime Accurate". This is all fine and dandy. It's a free market. I have to say though, it has all been a bit shocking for me considering the knit picky crowd here.

You should all be ashamed! (I'm kidding on that!) To each his own.

@MikeyB-17 hit on a huge point above, Pakistani quality and what is considered acceptable is way different than the mid and top tier makers. They can get it right but they need a lot of guidance sometimes to realize what is acceptable, and what is not.

This is my 2 cents on the subject. I realize as a jacket maker I need to be a bit reserved in my comments. I don't think anything said here is news, or beyond what is already known. Just some observations.
 

Pa12

Well-Known Member
I’m actually amazed by the market. I’ve worn various makes of A-2 jackets since around 1985. I’m a pilot/mechanic, worked and played in aviation since I was a kid, did all the air shows etc., and I have never seen anyone else wearing an A-2. And know one I know had ever heard of them. People would comment “nice jacket, what did that run you?”. When I told them , their jaw would drop and usually say something like “you must have more money than brains”. So I’m surprised there are so many outfits building them. And with huge waiting lists.
 

B-Man2

Well-Known Member
I’m actually amazed by the market. I’ve worn various makes of A-2 jackets since around 1985. I’m a pilot/mechanic, worked and played in aviation since I was a kid, did all the air shows etc., and I have never seen anyone else wearing an A-2. And know one I know had ever heard of them. People would comment “nice jacket, what did that run you?”. When I told them , their jaw would drop and usually say something like “you must have more money than brains”. So I’m surprised there are so many outfits building them. And with huge waiting lists.
Similar story . … I worked my way up the chain trying to get by on the cheap, starting with Avirex and moving up to US Authentic and then eventually to Aero and ELC and eventually GWs . I must have lost a couple of thousand dollars in buy and sell deals, when if I would have just bit the bullet and dropped 5 or 6 hundred on a top tier jacket right from the start … I would have literally saved money in the long run .
 

Micawber

Well-Known Member
I’m actually amazed by the market. I’ve worn various makes of A-2 jackets since around 1985. I’m a pilot/mechanic, worked and played in aviation since I was a kid, did all the air shows etc., and I have never seen anyone else wearing an A-2. And know one I know had ever heard of them. People would comment “nice jacket, what did that run you?”. When I told them , their jaw would drop and usually say something like “you must have more money than brains”. So I’m surprised there are so many outfits building them. And with huge waiting lists.

Crikey, you should come over to Duxford for one of their big shows where you won't be able to walk far without seeing herds of A-2 / B-3 / B-6/ D-1/ B-10 / B-15 clad blokes.
 

Pa12

Well-Known Member
Crikey, you should come over to Duxford for one of their big shows where you won't be able to walk far without seeing herds of A-2 / B-3 / B-6/ D-1/ B-10 / B-15 clad blokes.
They must all be over there. I even used to go to the geneseo air show every year and never saw one.
 

Pa12

Well-Known Member
Similar story . … I worked my way up the chain trying to get by on the cheap, starting with Avirex and moving up to US Authentic and then eventually to Aero and ELC and eventually GWs . I must have lost a couple of thousand dollars in buy and sell deals, when if I would have just bit the bullet and dropped 5 or 6 hundred on a top tier jacket right from the start … I would have literally saved money in the long run .
Me too. Though there wasn’t much to pick from in the 80’s
 
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