A Tale of Two Companies ...A Commentary on Business Development

[B-Man2]

I was sitting home today thinking about posting a jacket in the “What Jacket Are You Wearing Today “ section for the umpteenth time and trying to think of what jacket to use for that purpose. As I was going through some old photos of jackets, I came across a photo of a jacket that made me pause, and wonder whatever happened to that company .As I thought about that question, I became interested in why a particular company in this industry and hobby of ours, seems to go through a cycle of rapid and promising develop, only to slowly slip away and become yesterdays news in terms of marketing , sales and interest. So I decided that rather than to try and use my pea brain to analyze why that happens , that it would be more beneficial to utilize the collective intelligence of the members of this forum in a commentary and analysis of two relatively new start up companies and why one is having a fairly successful run and the other has faded by comparison . The two companies I’m referring to are 5 Star Leather vs. AVI Leather. They both came to the attention of this forum at just about the same time, give or take some months , but the business development paths that these companies have taken and the consumer responses they’ve received has been noticeably different . Now before I go any farther ... I get that there are some of you out there who think that both of these companies are low end jacket makers, who turn out shit, which is polluting the industry and taking the focus and sales away from the top tier jacket makers . I also get that some of you are purist and appreciate, admire and respect a company who can put together a stitch for stitch repro and create a work of art in reproducing an original jacket made 80 years ago. (Just for clarification I have jackets from both 5 Star and AVI companies but I consider myself as part of this group .) However, there are a number of members who are of another group and are looking for a jacket that closely approximates an original but don’t want to give up their first born male child or break the families bank account to acquire one . So with that in mind let’s take a look at both companies and post some of our thoughts on the matter .
I’ll start off with the most obvious one Customer Service ( leave it to me to take the easy route ) 5 Star is miles ahead of what AVI offers . I was impressed with my AVI when I first dropped 390 Euros or the equivalent of that in US dollars and received the jacket . However , it was a 1st run jacket and needed a lot of work . The color of the russet was way too orange , the goatskin was nice but was too heavy and thick for anything close to that of a WWII A2 jacket , so I emailed AVI with what I thought were some pretty accurate thoughts for product development...., and waited for their response . I received a reply that much of what I suggested was being addressed in a 2nd generation jacket and I was very happy with that reply . I followed AVIs growth and development and like most here read that they were acquiring original jackets to enhance the patterns of their jackets, but after that nothing . But then 5 Star came on the scene and the focus slowly shifted from AVI to 5 Star with their reduced cost and custom sizing . A feature not available from AVI.
OK...At this point I’ll shut my “Pie Hole” and welcome any commentary that you guys would like to offer on this subject . I always like to read your responses, so please don’t be shy . Also this is basically an opinion forum, so your opinion holds the same value as mine or anyone else’s . If you think I’m mistaken , confused or just plain nuts let it fly . It makes for good discussions .

 

[mulceber]

Good question to pose, Burt. I'm not as familiar with AVI's offerings as I am with Five Star's. I think you're right that a big part of Five Star's success is their stellar communication, both person-to-person and here on the board, where Shawn is constantly looking for feedback. This isn't just good customer service. It builds enthusiasm because there are constant improvements and board members can watch Shawn's jackets get better in real time. Another factor in Five Star's success, I think, is Shawn's willingness to take on any project. From what I recall, AVI seemed to limit itself to A-2 jackets, and maybe a couple other vintage military styles. Branching out was a really smart move on Shawn's part, I think. We all love A-2 jackets, but a lot of us have a bunch of them already. Making an A-1, D-1, AN-J-3, M-445A, etc. is great since it allows Shawn to reach the people who already have a large stable of the more commonly-collected jackets.

Those are just my thoughts. I'd love to hear others.

 

[B-Man2]

Some thoughtful and valid points Jan . AVI is based in Denmark and came on the scene a few years ago . They were one of the first to offer a decent repro for cheap money 390.00 Euros . I personally think that what really did them in was when Platon opened up JA DUBoW and offered great jackets at close to the same price as AVI .

 

[Bombing IP]

So AVI are still on the internet ? about 4 years ago I emailed the owner about their G1 jackets and was wondering if they could make them slightly bigger .To which the answer was no , I am not a big man by any means my chest size is 46" but they could not accommodate me with this simple request . The truth of the matter is with them you pick your size fill out the form enter your credit card info .He then contacts Pakistan and has them make the jacket and send it off to the AVI and on to the customer . I asked the owner why does he not make horse or steer jackets . He replied that he did not see the need to which I replied the jacket never ages and sent a picture of a well worn repro to make my point .Never heard back from him again , he made jackets and sold jacket nothing bad nothing remarkable ,he did not want his business to be steered in the direction the customer wanted .Some of the russet colors were just awful .From the beginning to the end the company never evolved .The free worldwide shipping was nice and you did not have to pay the VAT which all of europe seems to have to do at 20% .

 

[foster]

I agree with everything expressed in the above posts.

So much of it seems to be the level of customer customization vs. simply selling a basic stock product. 5-Star is very active on this forum (I cannot comment on other places as I don't really frequent other sites) and as a result, they have built up a relationship with the membership here. I don't know if AVI ever did anything remotely along those lines here? If they did, I did not notice. I am not likely to order from either company, so I tend to not take notice of the posts relating to their garments. But to overlook 5-Star's activity here is impossible. They are active, engaging in discussions, and maintaining presence on a more regular basis than myself and a decent chunk of the membership. This says a lot about their focus on marketing, product development, and communication business focus.

 

[Bombing IP]

Foster they are a one in a million company Five Star that is . Firstly they came with a plan but no knowledge of flight jackets ,the plan may not have a happy ending to it . To invest so much money and time into a product to which they did not know if they would get a return on .The very fact purchasing what was needed to make the jackets would of been expensive ,because you do not buy in pack of ten you have to buy a thousand ,That is a thousand labels ,a thousand snaps and so on ,then you go to the members of the forum and say tell me how to make this .Then come back with a sample with pictures and ask what do you think ,only to be torn with this is not right and this is wrong and why did you do that .You see Shawn is a very special person in that respect ,his reply was thankyou let me make another one with your suggestions in mind . This forum is a tough crowd to please now your making all these jacket samples but your still not making money. In fact you have spent a lot of money and invested a lot of time in researching suppliers and samples and asking people to make things a certain way re leather colors and finish buckle castings .Now the jackets are coming along and some one points out the jackets do not hang right on the shoulders . All the while your on eBay trying to buy original jackets only to be told we do not ship to Pakistan ,we are still climbing up hill but Shawn does not give up . I know their are people behind the scene helping Shawn with many things to get him to where he needs to be and make it all worthwhile . Then we have the people on this forum who jump in with negative comments ,they probably have never made anything in their lives you know the type armchair Quarterbacks . So now we have arrived at Nicks Dubow and I see we surmounted the summit and have arrived ! stick a fork in me baby I am done .As I have said before its been a most interesting journey with the patience of a saint at the helm steering Five Star . Love it or hate it Five star has come full circle and achieved an ending to his plan ,the finesse comes now with the little tweaks to make it on par to what were his peers in the jacket world . I think he has arrived here is to hoping the investment of time money and material has paid off ,and repays Shawn with many orders . I will finish with saying a big thankyou to Ties who never ceases to amaze me with his skill , Shawn I cant think of a better man to guide you Ties that is thanks mate .

PS I am not sure who else has been helping Shawn if you have you have kept it quiet I also thank you .

BIP

 

[B-Man2]

Nicely done BIP !
I know that there are a few here who are not fans of 5 Star products , I get that .. and they have been up front with it and you have to respect their opinions . No problem with that at all . But you also have to give Shawn and 5 Star their due . As you said, we are a tough crowd . You see that a lot with some of the feedback . “Can you make the pocket flap 1/4 higher, Can you make collar 1/2 inch longer or shorter “ Not being critical here, as this is “The Process “ to get to a final repro that’s as close to spot on as can be made . However, even if you’re not a fan you have to at least acknowledge that the guy is patient and is making an effort to try to develop the best product he can .

 

[Captain Ackley]

How close to 'finished 'do we feel Shawn's newest B3 is?
Certainly interested, though a jacket may have to wait till next winter even with 5 Star's more than fair prices. My wife would not be thrilled.

 

[bn1966]

Shawn is now a major presence on the FL, in particular with vintage civilian jackets and his unique approach. Five Star jacket thread there probably has more postings going on than any other thread. Trying to convince myself that I don’t need a black deerskin Trucker jacket..

 

[bn1966]

I’d love a 5 * B-3 jacket...damn global warMing...

 

[mulceber]

How close to 'finished 'do we feel Shawn's newest B3 is?
Certainly interested, though a jacket may have to wait till next winter even with 5 Star's more than fair prices. My wife would not be thrilled.

As near as I can tell, the only issue with them is that the cuffs and windflap should be made of a shorter shearling than the rest of the jacket. Others have pointed to some little things - the buckles are chrome plated instead of nickle, there are quibbles about whether the texture of the shearling is really correct, but imho, the cuff/storm flap issue is the only thing separating his B-3 from the top-tier repros.

 

[Kennyz]

I totally agree with all of this, BIP. I wish Shawn and Five Star the greatest success, it is well deserved!

Ken

Foster they are a one in a million company Five Star that is . Firstly they came with a plan but no knowledge of flight jackets ,the plan may not have a happy ending to it . To invest so much money and time into a product to which they did not know if they would get a return on .The very fact purchasing what was needed to make the jackets would of been expensive ,because you do not buy in pack of ten you have to buy a thousand ,That is a thousand labels ,a thousand snaps and so on ,then you go to the members of the forum and say tell me how to make this .Then come back with a sample with pictures and ask what do you think ,only to be torn with this is not right and this is wrong and why did you do that .You see Shawn is a very special person in that respect ,his reply was thankyou let me make another one with your suggestions in mind . This forum is a tough crowd to please now your making all these jacket samples but your still not making money. In fact you have spent a lot of money and invested a lot of time in researching suppliers and samples and asking people to make things a certain way re leather colors and finish buckle castings .Now the jackets are coming along and some one points out the jackets do not hang right on the shoulders . All the while your on eBay trying to buy original jackets only to be told we do not ship to Pakistan ,we are still climbing up hill but Shawn does not give up . I know their are people behind the scene helping Shawn with many things to get him to where he needs to be and make it all worthwhile . Then we have the people on this forum who jump in with negative comments ,they probably have never made anything in their lives you know the type armchair Quarterbacks . So now we have arrived at Nicks Dubow and I see we surmounted the summit and have arrived ! stick a fork in me baby I am done .As I have said before its been a most interesting journey with the patience of a saint at the helm steering Five Star . Love it or hate it Five star has come full circle and achieved an ending to his plan ,the finesse comes now with the little tweaks to make it on par to what were his peers in the jacket world . I think he has arrived here is to hoping the investment of time money and material has paid off ,and repays Shawn with many orders . I will finish with saying a big thankyou to Ties who never ceases to amaze me with his skill , Shawn I cant think of a better man to guide you Ties that is thanks mate .
BIP

 

[Lawssons]

Five Star Leather seems to be doing fine now. Now they also make caps and helmets

 

[johnwayne]

I saw elsewhere on this forum that 5* are currently offering a discount - 20% if I’m not wrong! That aside, didn’t I read some time back that AVI’s jackets came from
Pakistan and even poss suggesting they was made by Shawn?

 

[Southoftheborder]

I think the story was that AVI made the patterns and sent them to 5 Star to make the jackets. But after seeing there was a market for quite accurate repros 5 Star decided to cut out the middle man and sell them themselves. They had always made and sold low end jackets on eBay but now they embarked on a learning spree and picked the brains of everyone here. Someone suggested that they buy an original to dismantle for a pattern and they did and went on from there.

For what it's worth about five years ago someone here was selling some jackets he said were made by AVI, and I thought I would see what the fuss was about. But when it arrived it was labeled 5 Star... He was convinced that AVI and 5 Star were identical - and as I said above 5 Star did make jackets for them at first. But they probably made them with better materials than the 5 Star branded ones because I thought the jacket I received was very poor and I sent it back to him.

I think there was some bad feeling on AVI's part after what happened and they had to find another maker in Pakistan. They thought their patterns had been ripped off I believe.

 

[ZuZu]

Foster they are a one in a million company Five Star that is . Firstly they came with a plan but no knowledge of flight jackets ,the plan may not have a happy ending to it . To invest so much money and time into a product to which they did not know if they would get a return on .The very fact purchasing what was needed to make the jackets would of been expensive ,because you do not buy in pack of ten you have to buy a thousand ,That is a thousand labels ,a thousand snaps and so on ,then you go to the members of the forum and say tell me how to make this .Then come back with a sample with pictures and ask what do you think ,only to be torn with this is not right and this is wrong and why did you do that .You see Shawn is a very special person in that respect ,his reply was thankyou let me make another one with your suggestions in mind . This forum is a tough crowd to please now your making all these jacket samples but your still not making money. In fact you have spent a lot of money and invested a lot of time in researching suppliers and samples and asking people to make things a certain way re leather colors and finish buckle castings .Now the jackets are coming along and some one points out the jackets do not hang right on the shoulders . All the while your on eBay trying to buy original jackets only to be told we do not ship to Pakistan ,we are still climbing up hill but Shawn does not give up . I know their are people behind the scene helping Shawn with many things to get him to where he needs to be and make it all worthwhile . Then we have the people on this forum who jump in with negative comments ,they probably have never made anything in their lives you know the type armchair Quarterbacks . So now we have arrived at Nicks Dubow and I see we surmounted the summit and have arrived ! stick a fork in me baby I am done .As I have said before its been a most interesting journey with the patience of a saint at the helm steering Five Star . Love it or hate it Five star has come full circle and achieved an ending to his plan ,the finesse comes now with the little tweaks to make it on par to what were his peers in the jacket world . I think he has arrived here is to hoping the investment of time money and material has paid off ,and repays Shawn with many orders . I will finish with saying a big thankyou to Ties who never ceases to amaze me with his skill , Shawn I cant think of a better man to guide you Ties that is thanks mate .

PS I am not sure who else has been helping Shawn if you have you have kept it quiet I also thank you .

BIP

Both these companies are to me the equivalent of The Great White Hope in boxing- the top tier companies being Jack Johnson. It's just not going to happen that a $450 jacket is going to look right up close. Every time I see a picture or video of these jackets I always feel something's "off" about them. The jackets are sometimes sort of close but never do I feel I could suspend disbelief enough to think I'm looking at an original.
And for $450 you are just not going to get the acoutrements that bring a better repro into sharper focus- zips, labels, linings etc. etc. Stitching, seam allowances, snaps and other stuff are often way off. Also- I don't want to buy even a cheap jacket which is part of a work in progress. Doing that you will spend as much or more than you would have on a good repro because you WILL want the next corrected version of your cheap jacket!

That being said there is hope here! The Great White Hope may come up yet! Some of the leather these guys use is great- especially the goatskin- they are in the land of possibly great leather- and it's cheap.
Some of the tailoring on these jackets is also good- both companies seem to have a solid tailoring base which leads to squarish shoulders and good collar set which is something that can be a problem for other makers.

Finally- statements like this: "Then we have the people on this forum who jump in with negative comments ,they probably have never made anything in their lives you know the type armchair Quarterbacks . " We don't have to be jacket makers to criticize jackets- we just have to have EYES THAT SEE. I tried to make a jacket- it was impossible for my old ass to do it. That doesn't mean that I can't see when something is wrong with the jacket someone who is far more talented than me made. In fact I would say I've been blessed (or cursed) with eyes that can often immediately spot a flaw- been that way since I was a kid. The whole point of a forum is discussion- being uncritical all the time isn't necessarily doing anyone any favors.

 

[Micawber]

As long as you don't turn into a rude, dickhead in the process right

Joke BTW.

 

[mulceber]

I think there's a good balance to be struck. You're right that the differences between the high-end makers and the budget makers is noticeable, and if you have an eye for details and have spent a lot of time looking at originals, it's pretty hard to suspend your disbelief. I'm glad the budget makers are here, however: they always give us something new to talk about, and, tbh, not everyone has the ability or the inclination to spend GW or ELC prices on a jacket. If Five Star and AVI weren't on the scene, there's a lot of people who simply wouldn't be in this hobby, and that would be a shame.

 

[ZuZu]

As long as you don't turn into a rude, dickhead in the process right

Joke BTW.

Wow I never!!!

 

[ZuZu]

As long as you don't turn into a rude, dickhead in the process right

Joke BTW.

As I've tried to explain- I'm not really fit for polite company after my peculiar life- but I do enjoy this place so I'm going to be as nice as I can be