A Letter to Avirex or... I've Always Been a Pain in the Ass About Repros

[ZuZu]

I took a trip down Memory Lane recently and found this 1989 letter I wrote to Jeff Clyman of Avirex:

This is a 4 page letter- all complaints about seams, knits, linings, leather color, and then on to complaints about his catalog with its "survival map underwear" and "black Fying Tigers jackets" and the classic "Lend Lease Sweater"!

I write: "What I don't understand is why you can't make an authentic, realistic copy of the A-2. Your current Air Force version of it is a joke with its big pockets, cheap lining and balled up cuffs."

My compaints still stand- I DON'T understand and actually think it's sad that the Air Force ended up getting the shiity jacket they have today! It could have just as easily been a nice jacket if someone with some knowledge had designed it! Why the teardrop pockets? Why the 8" epaulets and baggy fit? (Which now forces the ROTC guys at Cal where I worked to buy small jackets so they'll look officer like) Why the washed out corpse grey color?

Anyway- it's kind of depressing. In 1976 there was an Avirex ad in the flying magazines which showed a reasonable copy of the A-2. It basically looked like a US Authentic jacket of today- an almost collar stand, pointed pockets like an Aero, a reasonable square fit and russet color. I ordered what I thought would be one of those and instead received the abomination which became the classic Avirex jacket of the 80s- microscopically thin smooth leather a dark almost black seal brown, polyester ling and cuffs, weird rounded pockets and collar tips and a lady's dress hook and loop on the windflap.

Avirex almost single-handedly ruined the repro. They became a cartoonish, silly buffoon of a company. They SUCK!

 

[ZuZu]

In his defense Jeff Clyman did write me a response- he actually was a classy guy in person and his store in NYC was fun to visit back in the day...

 

[ZuZu]

The balled up knits:

The horrible rounded collar:

This is that 80s dark seal thin thin leather:

The jacket I got didn't have side entry pockets but it may as well have... These are all example I pulled from the internet. My actual jacket looked like this example minus all the decoration:

 

[ZuZu]

Classic Avirex silly buffoonery:

 

[Ed Rooney]

I can’t believe those monsters at Avirex made you buy 3 jackets!

Maybe a 4th will make it all worthwhile.

 

[MikeyB-17]

Aah, the old ‘originals were all over the place so we can turn out any old crap and get away with calling it authentic’ line. Annoying thing is, as previously stated, if they put their minds to it they could actually turn out a half-decent repro, but they chose not to.

 

[jeffrey thurston]

I can’t believe those monsters at Avirex made you buy 3 jackets!

Maybe a 4th will make it all worthwhile.

The last part of the letter was me explaining that I had found a company in England that made a superior jacket the right color and with good details. My Eastman that I has just gotten cost less than the Avirex "authentic horsehide" jacket that I had. It's what inspired me to write the letter. But you're right- I was a thrice fooled idiot.

 

[Ed Rooney]

Search eBay for Avirex Top Gun jacket and you will see where their bread it buttered. Who buys those things?

 

[bseal]

The balled up knits:

View attachment 87283


The horrible rounded collar:

View attachment 87285

This is that 80s dark seal thin thin leather:

View attachment 87287

The decorations are phenomenal. Clyman rocks.

The jacket I got didn't have side entry pockets but it may as well have... These are all example I pulled from the internet. My actual jacket looked like this example minus all the decoration:

View attachment 87289

 

[Skyhawk]

Interesting letter and I am a little shocked that he responded. He is correct that there were many small differences in the A-2's. He was very wrong in the theory that there were not solid specifications and drawings in place, that had to be followed by the manufacturers. The original A-2's were not "all over the place" . The major details and patterns were close enough that when it comes down to it, no matter the contract, they all just have that original A-2 look. His new USAF A-2 did not.
It's very unfortunate. It was a huge lost opportunity.
"We have hundreds of original A-2 jackets in our collection" Yet he made a reproduction that lacks the basic style and cut of the original jackets. I have to wonder if the USAF insisted on some changes to the design that resulted in the differences.
Avirex made some other civilian A-2's that were a 100 times better than the USAF jacket.

 

[JonnyCrow]

Avirex here on second hand sites go for ridiculous amounts, just the avirex name alone as they know nothing as old Schultz used to say, as for those top gun jackets, and those with the fantasy Narnia map linings haha I suppose you want to to rape me for a obscene amount of money and teabag me for the privilege that's my response pffft

 

[Flightengineer]

Jeff, thank you sir, I'm glad someone tried to contact them and tell them to their face what many of us think about their "autentic jackets". It is clear that, given the realities of they business, your letter is essentially a fight against windmills, but at least you tried!
In those early years when you wrote to them, of course, I had no idea about A2, but when about 20 years ago I started to get involved in vintage flight jackets Avirex came to my attention ( like as to many others here), and I always thought how it was possible to have such a production, tons of originals on hand and in museums and made such shit so far from originals, and most importantly, at the same time, to tell everyone that these are super accurate repro... and their terrible crazy labels. However, they are not alone, and famous Alfa then repeated the same path only with a different suck jackets, creating a lot of myths around self.
Clyman's answer is of course fabulous in its idiocy and I agree more in my assessment with Jay's answer in this thread (rather with the first version of it before he edited it and made it smoother).

 

[B-Man2]

Hi guys !
I’ve read this thread with some interest and while I agree with some of the comments and respect all posters comments, I’d like to offer a little different perspective on this topic. So here goes;
Back in the middle to late 70s if you liked the A2 flight jacket, lived in the US, and you wanted to own an A2, you basically had a couple of options. You could find a used original or if you didn’t want to go that route you looked for a repro. For the most part Avirex was the only repro option available for those of us living in the US. So many of us on this forum started out wearing an Avirex A2 jacket. Yes we bought into the hype and bullshit of it being an “authentic WWII flight jacket” , and many of us thought we looked pretty good in the thing. Personally, I thought I looked pretty cool wearing one and a set of worn out jeans, a white T-shirt and a set of cowboy boots while riding my Harley around town. Of course a few years later, I found out, like the rest of us did, that all the hype about WWII jacket yada, yada, yada was really all bullshit and I went looking for other more authentic or original A2 jacket. But … the point is …that like many of us here, I got hooked on the A2 jacket collection hobby by my first jacket. The Avirex. Now others here have generally alluded that in spite of their complete dislike for the style, the hype, the bullshit, and the completely unauthentic look of the jacket, they still went out and purchased multiple jackets from Avirex. So the jacket had to have some attracting features .Now here’s where my opinion differs on this topic. If one is a true collector of these jackets then you have to give Avirex its rightful place historically and acknowledge that Avirex placed the repro A2 jacket in a position prominence during its initial years of production. It essentially got many of us started in the hobby. I lost my first Avirex (I won’t bore you with that story again) but I currently have one in my collection now, and I think it looks good for what it tried to portray back in the early years. No it’s not a GW or an ELC but it’s a jacket worth owning if you are interested in the history of this hobby. As an analogy I’ll use this anecdote. Before Willam Harley and Arthur and Walter Davison built their first motorcycle in 1903 their were a series of notable motorcycle builders starting in Germany in 1885 with Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach. Their bike never saw prominence and really was a loser but it’s part of motorcycle history. While owning a vintage Harley would be cool. owning one of the bikes that actually started the industry , even though it was considered a flop, would be even cooler.
So that my 2 cents worth. Not trying to start an up roar, just offering a little different opinion . Here’s my Horsehide Avirex that I have as piece in my jacket collection.
Cheers

 

[ZuZu]

Hi guys !
I’ve read this thread with some interest and while I agree with some of the comments and respect all posters comments, I’d like to offer a little different perspective on this topic. So here goes;
Back in the middle to late 70s if you liked the A2 flight jacket, lived in the US, and you wanted to own an A2, you basically had a couple of options. You could find a used original or if you didn’t want to go that route you looked for a repro. For the most part Avirex was the only repro option available for those of us living in the US. So many of us on this forum started out wearing an Avirex A2 jacket. Yes we bought into the hype and bullshit of it being an “authentic WWII flight jacket” , and many of us thought we looked pretty good in the thing. Personally, I thought I looked pretty cool wearing one and a set of worn out jeans, a white T-shirt and a set of cowboy boots while riding my Harley around town. Of course a few years later, I found out, like the rest of us did, that all the hype about WWII jacket yada, yada, yada was really all bullshit and I went looking for other more authentic or original A2 jacket. But … the point is …that like many of us here, I got hooked on the A2 jacket collection hobby by my first jacket. The Avirex. Now others here have generally alluded that in spite of their complete dislike for the style, the hype, the bullshit, and the completely unauthentic look of the jacket, they still went out and purchased multiple jackets from Avirex. So the jacket had to have some attracting features .Now here’s where my opinion differs on this topic. If one is a true collector of these jackets then you have to give Avirex its rightful place historically and acknowledge that Avirex placed the repro A2 jacket in a position prominence during its initial years of production. It essentially got many of us started in the hobby. I lost my first Avirex (I won’t bore you with that story again) but I currently have one in my collection now, and I think it looks good for what it tried to portray back in the early years. No it’s not a GW or an ELC but it’s a jacket worth owning if you are interested in the history of this hobby. As an analogy I’ll use this anecdote. Before Willam Harley and Arthur and Walter Davison built their first motorcycle in 1903 their were a series of notable motorcycle builders starting in Germany in 1885 with Gottlieb Daimler and Wilhelm Maybach. Their bike never saw prominence and really was a loser but it’s part of motorcycle history. While owning a vintage Harley would be cool. owning one of the bikes that actually started the industry , even though it was considered a flop, would be even cooler.
So that my 2 cents worth. Not trying to start an up roar, just offering a little different opinion . Here’s my Horsehide Avirex that I have as piece in my jacket collection.
CheersView attachment 87387

If any of my 4 Avirex's had looked like yours I'd be happy. None did. I don't really agree with your argument that Avirex somehow got us started in the hobby. In the mid 70's we could still go to the thrift store or surplus store and get an original. Already for me however I had the "Preciousness" problem where I didn't want to lose an original or wear it hard. Avirex was the ONLY repro choice in the USA that I knew about. By the late 80's there was Protech and Willis and Geiger and Lost Worlds. Far far better representations. By the late 80's Avirex was a joke with their clownsuit representations of fantasy silly silly stiff. And why? Only in the beginning were they serious contenders to make accurate A-2s. I wanted the jacket I saw in the Air Classics ad. Square with angular pockets. Why then the hideous thing they made later?
that they sold to the Air Force???

Anyway- your Avirex looks kinda like what I wanted. But in 1989 I got an Eastman. That made me happy finally (for a while...)

 

[herk115]

Hi, folks.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused. I wasn't aware that Avirex ever sold anything to the Air Force. My recollection is that it started with Cooper (an equally poor jacket, but I won't get into that here), then on to Orchard-Branded, then Cockpit. Am I confusing Cockpit with Avirex? Even though at one point I was "Leather Jacket Officer" in my unit (it was a humorous appointment...not a real position at all), I know little about the lineage of the modern USAF jacket.

I can only speculate about why the modern A-2 is so different from the WWII-era A-2s. First, the inner pockets were an absolute necessity. The width of the Cooper pockets was exactly the same as the length of the pen and mechanical pencils we were issued, so if your pen fell over sideways in the pocket it was a bit of a wrestling match to get it out again. In Herks we could stuff a pen almost anywhere in our flight suits, but the fighter guys with all their gear didn't have that option. So the inside pockets make sense. Second, the side entry pockets: who knows? They look terrible and I've sewn them closed on both of the Cockpit DSCP jackets I have. In my day we weren't allowed to have our hands in our pockets, so we had no side entry pockets on the Cooper. How they found their way onto the current jackets, and through the maze of regulations, is a mystery. Maybe the Air Force finally realized people like to have their hands in their pockets. Third, the shape, cut, look, whatever you want to call it: again, who knows? I think many will agree that an issue A-2 wasn't always the most comfortable jacket to wear. Even the current jackets don't necessarily lend themselves to mobility in the cockpit. So if the "new look" was for comfort, I have to say it is warranted. But I don't know if that's the case. In some cases, they look hideous. Fourth, the multiple panels and additional seams: remember that back in 1941 these jackets cost ten bucks. Compare that to the price of a high-end repro, like ELC or GW. I realize that's not a fair comparison, but if the Air Force had insisted on the original design, in horsehide, etc., etc., then we would never have gotten A-2s because they would have been outrageously expensive. It all came down, again in my opinion, to a matter of cost. Smaller pieces of leather make for a cheaper jacket, I suppose. And fifth, the hides. Again, probably a matter of cost. All the above said, I agree that it could have been handled much better, and the necessary changes still included.

Like them or not, the modern iteration of the A-2 worn by the Air Force is a part of A-2 history as much as the first SAT or Werber. They've been in use for a much longer span of time than the originals (1987 - present). They were and are worn by USAF pilots and crews flying USAF aircraft in wartime. In that sense they're every bit as real as any other A-2 made in the 1930s and 1940s. We must never forget that.

One more thing...in 1991 I visited the Avirex store in Beverly Hills. I was overwhelmed. "What a candy store!" I thought. I bought what looked, smelled, tasted, and fit like an authentic original A-2. It was probably a year later that I recognized the differences and realized what an inferior jacket it was. That's the one and only new item of any kind I've ever bought from Avirex. The store didn't last long, and the last time I saw it they were selling only gang apparel, nothing aviation related. I've bought a few used Avirexes from eBay mostly for spare parts, but I do find the jacket mentioned above with the rounded collar to be kind of a poor man's "Perry" repro. I have two of those and they don't look all that bad (but certainly not anywhere in GW's league). I mention this so you'll know, too, that I was caught in the "Avirex Trap" too, and fortunately it didn't kill my enthusiasm for A-2s.

Just my two cents' worth. Carry on, lads.

 

[ZuZu]

This is an actual Avirex jacket made for the Air Force. The original jacket first made in the 80s was designed by Avirex but I don't know which contractor actually made it. Sadly for you and guys who actually have to wear it it's an ugly jacket- history or no. I also think that proprtionally the USAF spends less on these jackets than the USAAF did in WW2. Avirex was basically the only US repro maker in the late 70s and early 80s and somehow Jeff Clyman finagled his way into designing the jacket for the Air Force- I certainly don't know that part of the story but I'm sure there was a lot of back slapping and promises of a beautiful thing.

IMO it would have been better if the Air force had just not ordered the thing at all. The design is awful and no amount of history or love is going to make it better. As far as the price you speak of- I think the Air Force knew it was just a morale sop and really didn't care- the Defense Department is not exactly know for its frugality now is it? If they had wanted a nice leather jacket they could have gotten it! This jacket was made in the era of the $600 toilet seat (a big scandal back then) so I really don't think money was the problem. If they had made a nice jackets for just pilots we're talking a few million dollars at most. Or jackets made for everyone with the same materials but not ugly- they could have done that to! You could make a nice looking jacket with goatskin, nylon thread and a cheap lining- it didn't have to be ugly. Just copy a WW2 contract, make it a bit larger and Voila! Getting Avirex and Jeff Clyman involved was the doom of this project...

 

[ZuZu]

Actually- I found of a bit of the history here on this site- and it is saaaad! From the Bomber Boys book thread here on VLJ the author of an upcoming book says:

"On the drawing . . . I was able to get the original A-2 spec 94-3040 declassified a few years ago, but no luck on getting the original 30-1415 drawing. Later I found that the Air Force was unsuccessful in locating an original A-2 drawing when they wanted to officially reintroduce the A-2 in 1988, so they relied upon Avirex with Willis & Geiger Outfitters to create a new A-2 drawing at that time. (Avirex made several hundred jackets in 1987 for the USAF 40th anniversary.)"

This is from the Bomber Boys thread- what a sad tale! The USAF DID try to find the original WW2 drawing for the A-2 but unable to find it they fell at the mercy of two 1980s hucksters (Jeff Clyman and Burt Avedon) who knew little about good jacket design but a lot about BS! The Ringling Brothers of jacketeering...

 

[Ed Rooney]

Hi, folks.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused. I wasn't aware that Avirex ever sold anything to the Air Force. My recollection is that it started with Cooper (an equally poor jacket, but I won't get into that here), then on to Orchard-Branded, then Cockpit. Am I confusing Cockpit with Avirex? Even though at one point I was "Leather Jacket Officer" in my unit (it was a humorous appointment...not a real position at all), I know little about the lineage of the modern USAF jacket.

I can only speculate about why the modern A-2 is so different from the WWII-era A-2s. First, the inner pockets were an absolute necessity. The width of the Cooper pockets was exactly the same as the length of the pen and mechanical pencils we were issued, so if your pen fell over sideways in the pocket it was a bit of a wrestling match to get it out again. In Herks we could stuff a pen almost anywhere in our flight suits, but the fighter guys with all their gear didn't have that option. So the inside pockets make sense. Second, the side entry pockets: who knows? They look terrible and I've sewn them closed on both of the Cockpit DSCP jackets I have. In my day we weren't allowed to have our hands in our pockets, so we had no side entry pockets on the Cooper. How they found their way onto the current jackets, and through the maze of regulations, is a mystery. Maybe the Air Force finally realized people like to have their hands in their pockets. Third, the shape, cut, look, whatever you want to call it: again, who knows? I think many will agree that an issue A-2 wasn't always the most comfortable jacket to wear. Even the current jackets don't necessarily lend themselves to mobility in the cockpit. So if the "new look" was for comfort, I have to say it is warranted. But I don't know if that's the case. In some cases, they look hideous. Fourth, the multiple panels and additional seams: remember that back in 1941 these jackets cost ten bucks. Compare that to the price of a high-end repro, like ELC or GW. I realize that's not a fair comparison, but if the Air Force had insisted on the original design, in horsehide, etc., etc., then we would never have gotten A-2s because they would have been outrageously expensive. It all came down, again in my opinion, to a matter of cost. Smaller pieces of leather make for a cheaper jacket, I suppose. And fifth, the hides. Again, probably a matter of cost. All the above said, I agree that it could have been handled much better, and the necessary changes still included.

Like them or not, the modern iteration of the A-2 worn by the Air Force is a part of A-2 history as much as the first SAT or Werber. They've been in use for a much longer span of time than the originals (1987 - present). They were and are worn by USAF pilots and crews flying USAF aircraft in wartime. In that sense they're every bit as real as any other A-2 made in the 1930s and 1940s. We must never forget that.

One more thing...in 1991 I visited the Avirex store in Beverly Hills. I was overwhelmed. "What a candy store!" I thought. I bought what looked, smelled, tasted, and fit like an authentic original A-2. It was probably a year later that I recognized the differences and realized what an inferior jacket it was. That's the one and only new item of any kind I've ever bought from Avirex. The store didn't last long, and the last time I saw it they were selling only gang apparel, nothing aviation related. I've bought a few used Avirexes from eBay mostly for spare parts, but I do find the jacket mentioned above with the rounded collar to be kind of a poor man's "Perry" repro. I have two of those and they don't look all that bad (but certainly not anywhere in GW's league). I mention this so you'll know, too, that I was caught in the "Avirex Trap" too, and fortunately it didn't kill my enthusiasm for A-2s.

Just my two cents' worth. Carry on, lads.

Avirex had a contract for the same sort of jackets as Cooper and Orchard, maybe early 90's, then they had the post 2001 jacket contract with the handwarmer and inside pockets. I have one of these and it is a nice jacket, albeit roomy. Cockpit is basically rebranded Avirex, so those 2005+ jackets are basically Avirex.

As an Aerial Observer and later a crew chief in the Army Guard in the 90's, I feel your pain with the pockets. Anyone who has ever done a preflight or a daily in cold weather knows the value of handwarmer pockets. If people are cold and miserable, they will do their inspections too quickly and potentially miss stuff that would be noticed on a pleasant spring day. I made a habit of wearing my gore-tex parka over my CWU-45 so that I could use the big pockets with my gloves on.

In 95 or so we got some flight suits with different features, like creases in the legs, no flashlight pocket, and some pen slots added on the calf pocket. I think they had zips on the side for pockets. It's all foggy.

 

[herk115]

View attachment 93619

View attachment 93621


This is an actual Avirex jacket made for the Air Force. The original jacket first made in the 80s was designed by Avirex but I don't know which contractor actually made it. Sadly for you and guys who actually have to wear it it's an ugly jacket- history or no.

Ah, yes. I stand corrected. I'd gotten out in the mid-90s so I missed the "pleasures" of the Avirex issues. I did buy one on eBay in the mid-2000s, and as you state, it was an ugly POS. Don't even know if I still have it anymore.

I've got to remember to stop going by memory when I post...

 

[herk115]

Actually- I found of a bit of the history here on this site- and it is saaaad! From the Bomber Boys book thread here on VLJ the author of an upcoming book says:

"On the drawing . . . I was able to get the original A-2 spec 94-3040 declassified a few years ago, but no luck on getting the original 30-1415 drawing. Later I found that the Air Force was unsuccessful in locating an original A-2 drawing when they wanted to officially reintroduce the A-2 in 1988, so they relied upon Avirex with Willis & Geiger Outfitters to create a new A-2 drawing at that time. (Avirex made several hundred jackets in 1987 for the USAF 40th anniversary.)"

This is from the Bomber Boys thread- what a sad tale! The USAF DID try to find the original WW2 drawing for the A-2 but unable to find it they fell at the mercy of two 1980s hucksters (Jeff Clyman and Burt Avedon) who knew little about good jacket design but a lot about BS! The Ringling Brothers of jacketeering...

One would think it could all be corrected when the next contract is issued. But of course we know how likely it is for that to happen.