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a-2 pocket placement. lets make some definitive answers.
- Thread starter Tim P
- Start date
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Anonymous
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Tim- I have only one original at this point for comparison- a Roughwear 18091 size 46. The pockets are around 3 1/4" from the center of the windflap. On my Eastman 1401ps (I had four of them) the pockets were 4 to 4 1/2" from the center of the windflap on a 44. Wrong IMO. Gave the wearer a pot bellied appaerance. My LW Dubow size 46 had pockets 5 1/2"! yes that's 5 1/2" from the center of windflap! Dubows are actually noted for a small distance between pockets. There's a start for you.Tim P said:
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Anonymous
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Russia 1941...rich said:
hacker
Active Member
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Anonymous
Guest
God- That's the trouble with getting old- I forgot the real story- thanks Hackerhacker said:
...meth lab's gone...
Chandler
Well-Known Member
I think we can all benefit from the Good Wear website over this discussion (thanks John) and his links to the Doolittle Raiders portraits. I jumped over there just to peruse them once again and am just amazed at how many different configurations of jackets and their components can be seen.
http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/links.html
Group 16, the fella on the far right, hiding behind the Captain, makes me sort of sorry I gave my old Avirex to my nephew a few years back. But the Captain's jacket himself shows that pocket spread I'd seen more often at the time I ws growing tired of the Avirex.
Group 10, OTOH the pocket config on the forward flyer to the left is so out of balance as to really make you shake your head. The two front flyers also sporting that lower, "pot bellied," sort of baggy look that my ELC Star tends toward.
Lot of support for any and all A-2 variety of differences. Did someone say this was a "uniform" item?
Chandler
http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/links.html
Group 16, the fella on the far right, hiding behind the Captain, makes me sort of sorry I gave my old Avirex to my nephew a few years back. But the Captain's jacket himself shows that pocket spread I'd seen more often at the time I ws growing tired of the Avirex.
Group 10, OTOH the pocket config on the forward flyer to the left is so out of balance as to really make you shake your head. The two front flyers also sporting that lower, "pot bellied," sort of baggy look that my ELC Star tends toward.
Lot of support for any and all A-2 variety of differences. Did someone say this was a "uniform" item?
Chandler
A
Anonymous
Guest
Good to see you're studying period photos... that being said there's still not a lot of support for details of various contracts being off wily-nilly. The wide pocket spread (16) is still probably under 3 1/2" and the very close Avirex looking spread is on I would guess a Dubow which in very small sizes has pockets close to the windflap. Many of the jackets in these photos are Aero 16160s mixed in with Dubows, Roughwears and possibly a Werber or two (I know I'm guessing). The 16160 and Aeros in general often seem to have offset pockets. I'm still not seeing any justification for 4" pocket spread using the pocket width as a guide.Chandler said:
Chandler
Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
LOL!! I'll ship my library to your house some time. Books are more an addiction than anything else in my life other than SWMBO.
There are one or two with, what look to be, very small pockets, but there's no way you can tell between 3.5 or 4 inches from a photo. Besides, it's more in the "look" than anything -- just *look* at all the different examples.
Chandler
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Anonymous
Guest
Chandler:
I agree it's about "the look"- that's what I'm getting at! The jackets in the Doolittle crew photos are probably mostly small- 38s, 40s, and a 42 or two. The jacket with the "pocket spread" you refer to in photo 16 is a Roughwear I'm 99% sure and I know Roughwears have pockets around 3" from the windflap seam- 3 1/2-3/4" from center of windflap. I know there would be slight variance but I really don't think a small Roughwear's going to have pockets much further apart than that. The problem for us today is that there's a tendency to make the pockets too far apart as the size gets larger- IMO destroying "the look" and actually creating "the repro look". The jackets in photo 16 with the very close in pockets are collar-stand Dubows I'm pretty sure. What I'm getting at is that where you see a hodge-podge is often because of the different characteristics of different contracts- in photo 16 there's at least three (Roughwear, Dubow, Aero).
A
Anonymous
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Chandler... what is it with the Avatars? You feeling important or academic?
Chandler
Well-Known Member
Tranquility Base said:
Well, self-importance doesn't need to be a bad thing (Foghorn is important?) -- right up there with self confidence, and I do have a college degree -- so I guess I can be as acedemic as I please (barring any resemblence to the perceived view of the Fedora Lounge), but unless you've been following closely; ask no questions till you know more. If you have been following closely, you might get a clue. One small step for man, and all that.
Chandler
(changing avatars ain't rocket science -- sheesh)
(BTW -- anyone who IDs the fine, upstanding gentleman at left wins my admiration, a drop of fine whiskey, and a kewpie doll)
Chandler
Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
Crews 3, 4, 5, 11, 12, & 16 -- there are flyers there who have to be bigger than 42s.
And how many of those crew do you suppose knew what "contract" he or any of the other guys had? I guess my point being, we're all too hung up on that devil detail, when we should be seeing the bigger picture.
Chandler
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Anonymous
Guest
First- The guy in 3 may be a 44 but he's got a 40 jacket on!Chandler said:
The jackets in these photos do not really justify any of the far apart pockets on current repros- I studied these photos obsessively for a month when I got my GW 16160.Second- We go through this "WW2 air crews wouldn't care what contract they had" scenario every couple of months. I personally want a WW2 A-2 jacket that I can wear- not some "bigger picture" inaccurate crap. The devil IS in the details- as the details get closer the jackets start to look the part. If not an accurate copy- what is the "big picture"? 20 feet away? Get a US Authentic and be happy! I'll keep buying jackets (I can get 'em now!) that look like WW2 A-2s new in the box...
Chandler
Well-Known Member
rotenhahn said:
At 6'7", I imagine he's probably wearing the jacket that best fit his shoulder breadth, but probably couldn't find one with sleeves that matched.
Also interesting knowing the height of one flyer to compare with the others, there are definitely some bigger guys in that group.
Chandler
Tim, Here are the measurements in inches from eight originals in my collection:
Make .. size .....Left pocket spacing from windflap ... Right picket spacing from leather(not zip)
Star 42............... ...... 5 ............... .. 4
Aero 21996 44 ............ 4,3/4 ............ 3,1/4
Aero 21996 44 ............ 4,1/2 ............. 3
Sheeplined 42 ............. 4,3/4 ............. 3,1/2
RW 1401p 42 .............. 4 .................. 3, 1/2
RW 23380 42 ............. 4, 1/2............. 3, 1/2
Poughkeepsie 44 .......... 5 .......... .. ..... 4, 3/4
Perry 44 ............. ... .. 4, 1/2 ............. 3,1/4
My new Eastman
.50 Cal by way
of comparison 42 ............. 4, 1/2 ................. 3, 1/4 (please note how similar the spacing is to the original Aeros above!)
This list is only a very small sample but it does suggest variations both between makers and from the same maker.
Make .. size .....Left pocket spacing from windflap ... Right picket spacing from leather(not zip)
Star 42............... ...... 5 ............... .. 4
Aero 21996 44 ............ 4,3/4 ............ 3,1/4
Aero 21996 44 ............ 4,1/2 ............. 3
Sheeplined 42 ............. 4,3/4 ............. 3,1/2
RW 1401p 42 .............. 4 .................. 3, 1/2
RW 23380 42 ............. 4, 1/2............. 3, 1/2
Poughkeepsie 44 .......... 5 .......... .. ..... 4, 3/4
Perry 44 ............. ... .. 4, 1/2 ............. 3,1/4
My new Eastman
.50 Cal by way
of comparison 42 ............. 4, 1/2 ................. 3, 1/4 (please note how similar the spacing is to the original Aeros above!)
This list is only a very small sample but it does suggest variations both between makers and from the same maker.
exactly what I was after. thank you for taking the time. So 1/2 inch (maximum) out, especially on my 48 dubow is hardly a deal breaker at that is it? all roughly a 42 and all between 4 and 5 inch spacing.
These measurements are on originals that are unaltered. I want to to get a straw poll from the 3 inch brigade now (no innuendo intended) to balance things out because opinions are one thing and they can be polarised but facts are facts.
again thank you.
Tim
These measurements are on originals that are unaltered. I want to to get a straw poll from the 3 inch brigade now (no innuendo intended) to balance things out because opinions are one thing and they can be polarised but facts are facts.
again thank you.
Tim
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