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A-2 armpit holes

bfrench

Administrator
Hi, Guys,

I'm trying to figure out the relationship of the armpit hole and fit considering the A-2.

From my limited knowledge the original armpit hole is higher meaning it still sits on the shoulder but higher into the armpit than a modern day cut.

Then I've seen somewhere that the location of the armpit hole from front to back has a big play on how tight a jacket will feel across the chest.

Can someone spend a little time and help me understand this because it now seems that there is another measurement that comes into effect when considering how a repro jacket will fit.

I'm thinking that if a jacket wit a 26" standard armpit to armpit measurement with the armpit hole centered on the shoulder would give an even amount of slack across the front and back.

If the hole was centered forward - there'd be more slack across the chest but tighter across the back.

Theen if you left the hole centered as in the first instance and elongated the hole toward the front - then you'd have slack across the back and extra slack across the front giving a looser fitting jacket across the front as a whole.

How am I doing so far???

Reason I ask is that tubby guys like me are never going to fit into trim WWII patterns unless they're really customized - probably why I fit easily into a Gibson and Barnes - high square shoulders and wider armpit holes.

Ok, guys, lets hear the coments cause this could go a long way in helping a lot of us figure out fit.

Bill French
 

bfrench

Administrator
Clark J said:
Sounds like a Chapman question.

Hi, Clark,

Considering John is probably busy building our jackets, I thought it might be better to cull the information from our more educated members.

Plus it gives us all a chance to pipe in and talk jacket construction.

Bill French
 

Jason

Active Member
Hi Bill,
I've been trying to figure out why my Saddlery A-2 feels so strange. It feels like it's binding tight across my chest with arm movement, yet its bigger than my Aero Real Deal in most measurements. The Aero doesn't have that restrictive feeling.
The answer, I decided, has a LOT to do with armhole measurements. I'm about a 39 inch chest (and only about 2 inches less at the waist :oops: ). Consider the following armpit to armpit and then sleeve hole (from top centre of epaulette to armpit, in a straight line) measurements:

Original Perry, size 42: 21.75 armpit to armpit; 8.75 sleeve hole
Aero RD, size 40: 22.25 armpit to armpit; 9.50 sleeve hole
Saddlery, size 42: 23.50 armpit to armpit; 11.0 sleeve hole

Now, with arms at sides, jackets zipped about 3/4 up, each feels comfortable. However with some arm movement, the Saddlery by far is the least comfortable. I attribute this to the 'duck webbed feet' effect - the excess leather sitting at my armpits 'fills in' the space between my body and half way down my upper arms, in the same way as webbed skin does on ducks feet. This then pulls the leather of the body tight across my chest just below the armpits, and also offers resistance and pulls at the sleeves on the upper arms.
With the Perry and Aero, becasue of the closer fitting form around the armpits, arm movement doesn't forward or to the sides doesn't cause the body to be affected in the same way as the Saddlery does.
However, this excess 'webbing' the Saddlery has is an advantage if you have to reach up. High sleeve holes means that a more form fitting jacket like the Perry and Aero RD on me will ride up in the body. The Saddlery does not do this anywhere near as much - precisely because of the extra room in the armpit area.

None of these problems are apparent if any of the jackets are unzipped.

Does that make sense?

All that is applicable to me and my build and body shape. Differnet body shape, or differnet function, even personal preference means that you'd need a differnet cut to suit - which is why the G&B works well for you, and why the Saddlery doesn't work so great for me (I might have to go for a 38 in the Saddlery to make it better fitting)
 

bfrench

Administrator
Jason said:
Hi Bill,
I've been trying to figure out why my Saddlery A-2 feels so strange. It feels like it's binding tight across my chest with arm movement, yet its bigger than my Aero Real Deal in most measurements. The Aero doesn't have that restrictive feeling.
The answer, I decided, has a LOT to do with armhole measurements. I'm about a 39 inch chest (and only about 2 inches less at the waist :oops: ). Consider the following armpit to armpit and then sleeve hole (from top centre of epaulette to armpit, in a straight line) measurements:

Original Perry, size 42: 21.75 armpit to armpit; 8.75 sleeve hole
Aero RD, size 40: 22.25 armpit to armpit; 9.50 sleeve hole
Saddlery, size 42: 23.50 armpit to armpit; 11.0 sleeve hole

Now, with arms at sides, jackets zipped about 3/4 up, each feels comfortable. However with some arm movement, the Saddlery by far is the least comfortable. I attribute this to the 'duck webbed feet' effect - the excess leather sitting at my armpits 'fills in' the space between my body and half way down my upper arms, in the same way as webbed skin does on ducks feet. This then pulls the leather of the body tight across my chest just below the armpits, and also offers resistance and pulls at the sleeves on the upper arms.
With the Perry and Aero, becasue of the closer fitting form around the armpits, arm movement doesn't forward or to the sides doesn't cause the body to be affected in the same way as the Saddlery does.
However, this excess 'webbing' the Saddlery has is an advantage if you have to reach up. High sleeve holes means that a more form fitting jacket like the Perry and Aero RD on me will ride up in the body. The Saddlery does not do this anywhere near as much - precisely because of the extra room in the armpit area.

None of these problems are apparent if any of the jackets are unzipped.

Does that make sense?

All that is applicable to me and my build and body shape. Differnet body shape, or differnet function, even personal preference means that you'd need a differnet cut to suit - which is why the G&B works well for you, and why the Saddlery doesn't work so great for me (I might have to go for a 38 in the Saddlery to make it better fitting)

Hi, Jason,

One other measurement I've heard mentioned and don't fully understand - if the front and back location of the armpit hole.

If the hole is centered on the shoulder axis line - the slack should be the same front and back.

If it is moved rearward - the chect would be tight and the back slack - the reverse if the hole were moved forward.

Check the Saddlery and compare it's relation to the other jackets.

I'm also thinking - as JC mentioned in one of his emails - that by elongating the front part of the armpit hole will also increase the front slack.

I'm still trying to get a handle on this - that's why the thread.

Bill French
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
Jason said:
However, this excess 'webbing' the Saddlery has is an advantage if you have to reach up. High sleeve holes means that a more form fitting jacket like the Perry and Aero RD on me will ride up in the body. The Saddlery does not do this anywhere near as much - precisely because of the extra room in the armpit area.

I find the opposite ... In my RMNZ Dubows, with the high cut armholes, I can comfortably reach anywhere.

Recently I tried a Cooper, two sizes too large, and with sleeves set like bat's wings. As soon as I would reach, the sleeve, fixed half way down the body, pulls the whole jacket in that direction.

And, as I've mentioned before, the higher you zip an A-2, the less restrictive it becomes.
 

bfrench

Administrator
deeb7 said:
Jason said:
However, this excess 'webbing' the Saddlery has is an advantage if you have to reach up. High sleeve holes means that a more form fitting jacket like the Perry and Aero RD on me will ride up in the body. The Saddlery does not do this anywhere near as much - precisely because of the extra room in the armpit area.

I find the opposite ... In my RMNZ Dubows, with the high cut armholes, I can comfortably reach anywhere.

Recently I tried a Cooper, two sizes too large, and with sleeves set like bat's wings. As soon as I would reach, the sleeve, fixed half way down the body, pulls the whole jacket in that direction.

And, as I've mentioned before, the higher you zip an A-2, the less restrictive it becomes.

Hi, Deeb,

Another direction I hadn't thought about - I was thinking about an armpit hole with about the same point at the lower area but running higher up the shoulder giving more shoulder room without the batwings.

I know the jackets you mean - they have approximately the same top shoulder slope but enormous armpit holes going halfway down the side of the jacket.

Bill French
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Ok, guys, lets hear the coments cause this could go a long way in helping a lot of us figure out fit.

Bill French

Except to say that in general original A-2s had smaller armholes than today's jackets I can tell you that trying to figure this stuff out can make you end up like me- take warning!
 

bfrench

Administrator
rotenhahn said:
Ok, guys, lets hear the coments cause this could go a long way in helping a lot of us figure out fit.

Bill French

Except to say that in general original A-2s had smaller armholes than today's jackets I can tell you that trying to figure this stuff out can make you end up like me- take warning!

Isn't that why we're still here???? :p :cool: :D

Bill French
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
bfrench said:
I'm also thinking - as JC mentioned in one of his emails - that by elongating the front part of the armpit hole will also increase the front slack.

I'm still trying to get a handle on this - that's why the thread.

Bill French

I know what you're saying, Bill, but I don't think that you can figure out all the subtleties of fit just from measurements.

With 'house' patterns, you don't have a choice. With 'original maker' jackets you really need to try them, to find out which work best.

My own experience was that the Rough Wear, with it's collar stand, just didn't fit right for me. The collar sat out at the back, and there were creases behind the armholes, I looked like I was hanging on a hook.

Yet compared to the Dubow pattern, which I'm happy with, there are only minor differences in the measurements.

Wouldn't it be easiest to borrow a 'try on' jacket from John, and then he could advise suitable contracts based on the results?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yep it is! Bill- I'll tell you stuff like this has been in my brain since the 1970s- no amount of cocaine or alcohol ever completely got rid of it! Observe the Roughwear collar- IMO the subtlest thing since the Mona Lisa's smile- so easy to recognize- impossible to explain. eg.:

hurley1943.jpg
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
bfrench said:
I know the jackets you mean - they have approximately the same top shoulder slope but enormous armpit holes going halfway down the side of the jacket.

Bill French

That's it !!

I wasn't exaggerating, it looked like it had been designed to compliment the Vulcan bomber.

I take it that they aren't all like that.
 

deeb7

Gone, but not forgotten.
rotenhahn said:
I can tell you that trying to figure this stuff out can make you end up like me- take warning!

Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

All we need to do is keep you focussed .... and away from 'Beyond the Internet'.
 

bfrench

Administrator
deeb7 said:
bfrench said:
I'm also thinking - as JC mentioned in one of his emails - that by elongating the front part of the armpit hole will also increase the front slack.

I'm still trying to get a handle on this - that's why the thread.

Bill French

Wouldn't it be easiest to borrow a 'try on' jacket from John, and then he could advise suitable contracts based on the results?

Hi, Deeb,

I'm probably going that route but it takes all the fun out of learning the nuances of each pattern - like rotenhahn says, there's a bit of lunacy in this hobby just learning the basics of how a jacket is put together.

Bill French
 
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