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91st BG (H) A2
- Thread starter Micawber
- Start date
unclegrumpy
Well-Known Member
Here is a nice write up about the veteran, mentioning his artistic talents:
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/westwood-nj/george-odenwaller-5225660
Normally it is hard to find much about jackets that were done after the war. Here is a link showing another "Dutch" Outhouse Mouse A2 Odenwaller painted, with letters of authenticity, and in the additional photo section, a picture of the jacket in this thread hanging in a museum display:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/54/3686/original-a2-flight-jacket-with-reproduction
In my mind, the question with this jacket, is when did Odenwaller actually paint it? To my eye it looks like he started with a used jacket...a commercially made one from the late 40's to 50's....and painted in the late 1970's to maybe 1980's....then wore it...and donated what was then "his" jacket.
We know he did at least one other jacket for himself, and given from his obituary the involvement he had with his Group Association, it would interesting to find out how many other jackets he painted for other people. Neat story, and what sounds like a very interesting and enterprising fellow!
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/westwood-nj/george-odenwaller-5225660
Normally it is hard to find much about jackets that were done after the war. Here is a link showing another "Dutch" Outhouse Mouse A2 Odenwaller painted, with letters of authenticity, and in the additional photo section, a picture of the jacket in this thread hanging in a museum display:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/54/3686/original-a2-flight-jacket-with-reproduction
In my mind, the question with this jacket, is when did Odenwaller actually paint it? To my eye it looks like he started with a used jacket...a commercially made one from the late 40's to 50's....and painted in the late 1970's to maybe 1980's....then wore it...and donated what was then "his" jacket.
We know he did at least one other jacket for himself, and given from his obituary the involvement he had with his Group Association, it would interesting to find out how many other jackets he painted for other people. Neat story, and what sounds like a very interesting and enterprising fellow!
Last edited:
Micawber
Well-Known Member
Yep, seen all that before. I knew the man personally and I counted him as a friend. Postwar he was a talented professional model maker. I am aware, and he told me, he painted a few jackets later in life - he had a repro one that he wore himself, I have photos of him wearing it back in the '90's. That is a given
This particular jacket, along with a few other items from his time with the group, was transferred into my ownership / guardianship around 1997 and was then loaned and displayed along with others in the 91st museum. I have a large folder of correspondence covering all sorts of info and personal chat. Among the folder there is a full page note regarding regarding this jacket specifically. He clearly states this jacket was obtained from supply on the field as a replacement for his original issue jacket, which along with other personal items, was removed from his locker when the crew failed to return from a mission. After repairs the aircraft and crew returned to base to resume duties. He states that it was painted in the same manner as his issue A-2 using paints, thinners and a few brushes borrowed from Tony Starcer who, with one or two helpers painted jackets, patches and the majority of the 91st a/c nose-art
That is as far as the letter goes. Over the years he told me that he originally painted all the jackets for his crew. His girlfriend at the time was called Claire and he painted this just above his turret along with "Dutch" on the turret itself. He sent over AN6530 goggles as seen in the photos also with "Claire" inked on the strap. Later he also sent over a wooden camera box he found on a rubbish pile on the base which he rescued, painted "Out House Mouse" in yellow outlined in black on the lid, he said he then used this to keep candy in which was distributed to the crew when they let down and off oxygen on the way back from mission. This box remains in the museum at Bassingbourn.
I also have copies of correspondence between him and a collector in the States which included a generous offer to purchase this jacket - he did not sell as it was the jacket replacement he obtained on the base during his tour. Instead of selling it went on display as stated previously then withdrawn over and sent to me over here. It's been on display in the museum until very recently.
The guy is no longer with us and I have never doubted his integrity for one moment. I posted the images of the jacket as I thought they may be of interest. The jacket is not for sale under any circumstances.
This particular jacket, along with a few other items from his time with the group, was transferred into my ownership / guardianship around 1997 and was then loaned and displayed along with others in the 91st museum. I have a large folder of correspondence covering all sorts of info and personal chat. Among the folder there is a full page note regarding regarding this jacket specifically. He clearly states this jacket was obtained from supply on the field as a replacement for his original issue jacket, which along with other personal items, was removed from his locker when the crew failed to return from a mission. After repairs the aircraft and crew returned to base to resume duties. He states that it was painted in the same manner as his issue A-2 using paints, thinners and a few brushes borrowed from Tony Starcer who, with one or two helpers painted jackets, patches and the majority of the 91st a/c nose-art
That is as far as the letter goes. Over the years he told me that he originally painted all the jackets for his crew. His girlfriend at the time was called Claire and he painted this just above his turret along with "Dutch" on the turret itself. He sent over AN6530 goggles as seen in the photos also with "Claire" inked on the strap. Later he also sent over a wooden camera box he found on a rubbish pile on the base which he rescued, painted "Out House Mouse" in yellow outlined in black on the lid, he said he then used this to keep candy in which was distributed to the crew when they let down and off oxygen on the way back from mission. This box remains in the museum at Bassingbourn.
I also have copies of correspondence between him and a collector in the States which included a generous offer to purchase this jacket - he did not sell as it was the jacket replacement he obtained on the base during his tour. Instead of selling it went on display as stated previously then withdrawn over and sent to me over here. It's been on display in the museum until very recently.
The guy is no longer with us and I have never doubted his integrity for one moment. I posted the images of the jacket as I thought they may be of interest. The jacket is not for sale under any circumstances.
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
Hi
Let me say that the jacket you have is a wonderful piece of history, and with its provenance, I believe that this jacket was worn during the time period that you described. Please keep in mind that what I’m about to say will not diminish the worth of your jacket or anyone’s credibility concerning the history of this jacket. Here’s the issue as briefly as I can state it. We have people here, some of who have reasesrched the historical development of the A2 jacket, from its infancy. They’ve analyzed every contract ever issued, researched every manufacturer who ever produced an A2 jacket. In short they have or are presently writing books on the A2 jacket . They are considered the leading reasesrchers in the world on this matter. And they fairly unamiuosly agree that this jacket was not an issued military item, as it does not conform to any known contract or manufacturer design.
Ok so having said that, here’s my educated guess on a possible scenario for what possibly could account for what may have happened.
Many private sale items were made and purchased by GIs during the war. England had numerous cottage industries making things for GI military use. I think your jacket very possibly could have been made and privately purchased by a member of a flight crew at some point in time . He may also, later intime been MIA or KIA. It was normal operating procedures to collect the flight gear of downed or missing crew members and if they didn’t return, disseminate that gear to other flight crew members in need. That’s one sensrio of many possible ones that would account for everything you e told us about this jacket. I hope I conveyed this in a respectful and
thoughtful way so as not to in any way demean the importance of your jacket.
Cheers
B-man2
Let me say that the jacket you have is a wonderful piece of history, and with its provenance, I believe that this jacket was worn during the time period that you described. Please keep in mind that what I’m about to say will not diminish the worth of your jacket or anyone’s credibility concerning the history of this jacket. Here’s the issue as briefly as I can state it. We have people here, some of who have reasesrched the historical development of the A2 jacket, from its infancy. They’ve analyzed every contract ever issued, researched every manufacturer who ever produced an A2 jacket. In short they have or are presently writing books on the A2 jacket . They are considered the leading reasesrchers in the world on this matter. And they fairly unamiuosly agree that this jacket was not an issued military item, as it does not conform to any known contract or manufacturer design.
Ok so having said that, here’s my educated guess on a possible scenario for what possibly could account for what may have happened.
Many private sale items were made and purchased by GIs during the war. England had numerous cottage industries making things for GI military use. I think your jacket very possibly could have been made and privately purchased by a member of a flight crew at some point in time . He may also, later intime been MIA or KIA. It was normal operating procedures to collect the flight gear of downed or missing crew members and if they didn’t return, disseminate that gear to other flight crew members in need. That’s one sensrio of many possible ones that would account for everything you e told us about this jacket. I hope I conveyed this in a respectful and
thoughtful way so as not to in any way demean the importance of your jacket.
Cheers
B-man2
Micawber
Well-Known Member
Yes I would concur with all that you have said. Indeed, there are a number of scenarios and I realised same when the jacket was sent over. Please bear in mind that I did not state that this was an issue item but rather stated that he says he obtained it from "supply on the field" - for all we know this could be from the shed where gear was turned in or collated from lockers of MIA etc - or it could have been got somewhere else on the base. As mentioned he states his original issue A-2 was removed from his locker, this one was the replacement.
Granted I am newly registered here but I have lurked for a fair while. I know of and respect the expertise of folks here, it was not my intention to question that it any way and actually do not believe I have - apologies if that is not the case.
I was a member then curator of the museum referred to for some years where there are a number of donated direct from veteran jackets. This is the only one that was given to me personally and I have no intention of parting with it. With that in mind I am not interested in any monetary value this jacket may or may not have. As you can see it is in far from good condition but it is a reminder of a good - and funny - man, one of many veterans I have been privileged to meet over many years.
Granted I am newly registered here but I have lurked for a fair while. I know of and respect the expertise of folks here, it was not my intention to question that it any way and actually do not believe I have - apologies if that is not the case.
I was a member then curator of the museum referred to for some years where there are a number of donated direct from veteran jackets. This is the only one that was given to me personally and I have no intention of parting with it. With that in mind I am not interested in any monetary value this jacket may or may not have. As you can see it is in far from good condition but it is a reminder of a good - and funny - man, one of many veterans I have been privileged to meet over many years.
B-Man2
Well-Known Member
I am in full agreement with you. I’m sure no one here even entertained the idea of buying your jacket, as we are aware of its significance to you. Welcome aboard, I think you have a great deal to offer in the way of information and experience. Please don’t lurk in the shadows any longer. We are all friends here, who just haven’t met each other yet
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Welcome the forum!
Your jacket is made out of Capeskin. The grain is unmistakable and unique. Here are a few threads that show examples:
http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/vintage-capeskin-windcheater-44”.21048/
http://vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-options-updates-headwind-mfg-co.19077/#post-206498
Here is our new Capeskin at Headwind. A virtual match to this jacket's hide:
Your jacket is made out of Capeskin. The grain is unmistakable and unique. Here are a few threads that show examples:
http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/vintage-capeskin-windcheater-44”.21048/
http://vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/new-options-updates-headwind-mfg-co.19077/#post-206498
Here is our new Capeskin at Headwind. A virtual match to this jacket's hide:
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
What a stunning jacket. Private purchase or not any collector would love to have this in their collection.
If I had to bet on the hide I'd say Buffalo, it's dead ringer for the American Buffalo we used in the 1990s, at least one VLJ member still has one if he wants to respond,? I cant find any photos on file.
We didn't place a repeat order, the heavy grain wasn't universally popular, neither was the tendancy for mismatching of grain across a jacket, something that can be seen in areas of this A-2, collar, top of right sleeve
If I had to bet on the hide I'd say Buffalo, it's dead ringer for the American Buffalo we used in the 1990s, at least one VLJ member still has one if he wants to respond,? I cant find any photos on file.
We didn't place a repeat order, the heavy grain wasn't universally popular, neither was the tendancy for mismatching of grain across a jacket, something that can be seen in areas of this A-2, collar, top of right sleeve
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Buffalo grain is similar but a bit different with the lumps being not so big and closer together. Also the pore effect in-between the lumps is not as pronounced with the buffalo I have seen.
Another factor would be the weight. I can't speak for the OP's jacket but my Capeskin pictured is 3 oz and very light in weight. Bison would be 2x as heavy.
The OP mentioned the fragile nature of the jacket as well. More consistent with vintage Capeskin than tough Buffalo.
Also there are other examples of cape that matches this. So my money is on Capeskin on this one. Maybe he can weigh the jacket.
Regards,
Jay
Another factor would be the weight. I can't speak for the OP's jacket but my Capeskin pictured is 3 oz and very light in weight. Bison would be 2x as heavy.
The OP mentioned the fragile nature of the jacket as well. More consistent with vintage Capeskin than tough Buffalo.
Also there are other examples of cape that matches this. So my money is on Capeskin on this one. Maybe he can weigh the jacket.
Regards,
Jay
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
Buffalo come in warying thickness depending on how much is skivved off for splits etc.
3 oz means 3 oz per square foot, sometimes 3 oz is referred to as 1.2 or 1.3 (as the thickness which is uaually, but not necessarily closest to 3oz)
Bottom line 3oz means 3 oz, there's no heavy 3oz or light 3oz, only heavy 1.3 and lighter 1.3
3 oz means 3 oz per square foot, sometimes 3 oz is referred to as 1.2 or 1.3 (as the thickness which is uaually, but not necessarily closest to 3oz)
Bottom line 3oz means 3 oz, there's no heavy 3oz or light 3oz, only heavy 1.3 and lighter 1.3
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how one can judge the weight of the leather by a photograph,how much does one square foot of your capeskin weigh?
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Never said you could judge weight by a photograph except thick or thin. That's ridiculous. I simply said maybe he could weigh it and we would have a good idea if it is in fact Capeskin or Buffalo hide.
I assure you though mine is Capeskin and the thickness is 1.5mm. I will have to get back to you on the actual weight, but as far as the mm to oz conversion rate that would be just over 3 oz.
Ken at Aero Leather
Well-Known Member
The confusion is re you statement that your leather was very light in weight and describing it as 3 oz.
I can't be both
For example
Horween's Horsehide is considered very heavy by everyone who picks it up, one sq ft weighs a sliver over 3 oz and the leather is pretty consistently 1.3 thick
On the other hand, Horween's Steerhide, one sq ft weighs 4oz+ yet the leather isn't much over 1.4 thick, not that much thicker at all
Doing the maths, Steerhide, the way they tan it at least, is clearly heavier than horsehide
Sheep leather, on the other hand is quite light in weight and not dense at all, when you said yours was 3 oz that immediately suggested a much thicker leather than 1.5, one too thick for any 1930s jacket
Seems to me one sq ft of 1.5 sheep would be much closer to 2 oz than 3 oz, hence, as you say very light weight.
I can't be both
For example
Horween's Horsehide is considered very heavy by everyone who picks it up, one sq ft weighs a sliver over 3 oz and the leather is pretty consistently 1.3 thick
On the other hand, Horween's Steerhide, one sq ft weighs 4oz+ yet the leather isn't much over 1.4 thick, not that much thicker at all
Doing the maths, Steerhide, the way they tan it at least, is clearly heavier than horsehide
Sheep leather, on the other hand is quite light in weight and not dense at all, when you said yours was 3 oz that immediately suggested a much thicker leather than 1.5, one too thick for any 1930s jacket
Seems to me one sq ft of 1.5 sheep would be much closer to 2 oz than 3 oz, hence, as you say very light weight.
Skyhawk
Well-Known Member
Yes that is exactly it. It is confusing because there are a lot of tables and calculators online converting leather from mm to oz. Every one puts leather of 1.5 thickness between 3 to 4 oz. But none have a type of leather specified.
I think it is a big misconception with the general public that the smaller the oz the thinner the leather. When that is not always the case. I guess a good compromise is to just describe it as 1.5mm thick but very light Capeskin.
I think it is a big misconception with the general public that the smaller the oz the thinner the leather. When that is not always the case. I guess a good compromise is to just describe it as 1.5mm thick but very light Capeskin.
