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Who "invented" the A2?? (Ben Willis??)

regius

Active Member
Just got this NWT goatskin A2 by Willis Geiger. Mint condition. Saw this timeline printed on the tag, very intriguing.
1902-Ben Willis developed clothing for his arctic explorations
.....
1931-Awarded U.S.Army Air Corps contract for A-2 flight jacket.
....
1941-Outfitted American volunteer group the Flying Tiger fight in China.

Any of this is true? How was Ben Willis involved in the design of the A2 (or A1)?
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Roughwear

Well-Known Member
There is no evidence that W&G were awarded any military contracts for A2 jackets, apart from the 1988 modern A2 for the USAF. The first pre-War contract was awarded to Security Aviation Togs and here is the full list of contracts and W&G does not feature at all.

http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/a2-contract-dates-up-dated.13491/page-2

They made Naval flyng jackets not USAAF A2s in the War and yes many of the Flying Tigers wore M422 jackets and W&G were awarded the first contract for them in 1940 fiscal year.
 

Silver Surfer

Well-Known Member
yeah andrew has it right. w&g hooey. a-2s evolved out of a-1s, which in turn, evolved out of both american team sports warm up jackets and mc type [menlo-cossack] jackets of the early 20th century
 
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regius

Active Member
In the VICE article, this "explorer" Avedon spoke of him seeing another manufacturer's A2, who was awarded an 80s contract, and said it's a piece of crap. Who might that be? Cooper? I'm not saying Cooper or Orchard's products are crap, but this statement says more about this explorer, who had a princess for a wife. Sounds typical of the kind of business person who's pissed that their thing didn't work out.
 

SuinBruin

Well-Known Member
Burt Avedon is almost certainly a fabulist. He claims to have been in the AVG (at the ripe old age of 18), to have fought on the ground at Iwo Jima, to have been an ace, etc.

Check out page 2 -- 18 years old & in the AVG!

Not on the roster, though? Weird.

He also claims to be an ace with 13 victories (see page 12), but doesn't show up on any ace roster for the Navy in WWII. (Doesn't show up on any for Korea, either, probably because there was only one, whose name wasn't Burt Avedon.)

Also, he was apparently playing baseball at UCLA in 1944. Awkward timing for a fighter ace who would be getting his face in the sand just a few months later at Iwo, no?

I recall reading a few years ago another interview with Avedon where he detailed his involvement at Iwo Jima, supposedly as a ground observer or spotter for the air support, but of course having to pick up a rifle, etc. I can't find it now, which means I either hallucinated it (possible), or it's been scrubbed from the net. Anyway, the Vice article linked to above restates the claim, so there it is. In any case, I don't think there's any way to square the tale(s) that Avedon has told, so I'd take anything he or his company says with respect to the A-2 with a big grain of salt.
 

tibor

Well-Known Member
"A fabulist" is the most elegant description of outlandish bs that I've ever heard. My compliments SuinBruin for your restraint. Doesn't anybody at that museum believe in fact checking? :(
 

Bombing IP

Well-Known Member
Who "invented" the A2?? / back to the original question who made the first one that was offered for consideration to the USAAF . Did the first design go through many changes before it was adopted . How many other designs were offered and by whom is this known ? .Its an interesting jacket in the fact it did not do the job ,and was replaced by Hap Arnold for as his put it something better and along came the B10 which offered warmth neck and body . But the flyboys still wanted the A2 jacket so if it was not available they had it made locally post 43 . So do we have a linage of how who what and where of the birth of the A-2 Type ? .

BIP
 

2jakes

Member
Who "invented" the A2?? / back to the original question who made the first one that was offered for consideration to the USAAF . Did the first design go through many changes before it was adopted . How many other designs were offered and by whom is this known ? .Its an interesting jacket in the fact it did not do the job ,and was replaced by Hap Arnold for as his put it something better and along came the B10 which offered warmth neck and body . But the flyboys still wanted the A2 jacket so if it was not available they had it made locally post 43 . So do we have a linage of how who what and where of the birth of the A-2 Type ? .

BIP
I was curious so I went on the “search engine” and found this:
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11b4squ.jpg

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Also went to HATHI TRUST (digital library)
I entered : U.S. Army Air Forces Class 13 Catalog and this came up.
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2rr1ely.jpg

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Amazon:
29qk578.jpg
 
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SuinBruin

Well-Known Member
Burt Avedon is almost certainly a fabulist. He claims to have been in the AVG (at the ripe old age of 18), to have fought on the ground at Iwo Jima, to have been an ace, etc.

Check out page 2 -- 18 years old & in the AVG!

Not on the roster, though? Weird.

He also claims to be an ace with 13 victories (see page 12), but doesn't show up on any ace roster for the Navy in WWII. (Doesn't show up on any for Korea, either, probably because there was only one, whose name wasn't Burt Avedon.)

Also, he was apparently playing baseball at UCLA in 1944. Awkward timing for a fighter ace who would be getting his face in the sand just a few months later at Iwo, no?

I recall reading a few years ago another interview with Avedon where he detailed his involvement at Iwo Jima, supposedly as a ground observer or spotter for the air support, but of course having to pick up a rifle, etc. I can't find it now, which means I either hallucinated it (possible), or it's been scrubbed from the net. Anyway, the Vice article linked to above restates the claim, so there it is. In any case, I don't think there's any way to square the tale(s) that Avedon has told, so I'd take anything he or his company says with respect to the A-2 with a big grain of salt.
Not sure why the Wisconsin Veteran Museum links died, but here is the transcript of the interview in question. https://www.wisvetsmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Avedon-Burt-_OH220-1.pdf
 

Cocker

Well-Known Member
Reading the 6 first pages already makes me want to bang my head pretty hard against the wall.

So I just left it upside down. And I left it upside down, went down to 2000, 1500, 1000, 500. And I’ve still
got it upside down. And I know he’s just going to – I can see his face beginning to grimace a little bit. So I,
you know, went down to 250 feet, and then we go down to 200 feet, and then we go down to 150 feet,
and then I rolled it over and landed it – dead stick. ‘Cause I had the field spotted and I knew what the glide ratio
was. And he said, “You’ve flown before!” And I said, “Yes, sir, go look in my file.”

Who can even believe this kind of bullcrap?! :mad:
 

zoomer

Well-Known Member
Who "invented" the A2?? / back to the original question who made the first one that was offered for consideration to the USAAF . Did the first design go through many changes before it was adopted . How many other designs were offered and by whom is this known ? .Its an interesting jacket in the fact it did not do the job ,and was replaced by Hap Arnold for as his put it something better and along came the B10 which offered warmth neck and body . But the flyboys still wanted the A2 jacket so if it was not available they had it made locally post 43 . So do we have a linage of how who what and where of the birth of the A-2 Type ?
If there is such a thing it's probably in Japanese ;)...for years American interest in inter-war aviation was zero-minus. No war means no war heroes. And there were damn few fliers in the military, so no one's dad or grandpa was involved.

Burt didn't start much, tho he did make the "NA-1" - actually BuAer style 37J1B, tho he neither knew nor probably cared.
 

zoomer

Well-Known Member
About the origins of the A-2...some of us are on the scent!

The discovery of a previously unknown earliest contract - Order 31-1897, to the P. Goldsmith Sons Co., Cincinnati, for just 25 jackets - has started a mad scramble for photos that might show it being worn in the early '30s. No jackets are known to exist, so as of now, it's all sleuthing.

Most of the discussion is here
with some here
 
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zoomer

Well-Known Member
My best guess at this point for the "father" of the A-2: Hap Arnold. As field supervisor to the AAC Materiel Division in 1930, he was in a position to learn what fliers did and did not like about their gear, and also to get items to a few senior pilots to experiment with.

The big mystery right now is a jacket apparently predating the Goldsmith service test contract, worn by at least 5 key officers: Majs. Herbert Dargue and Carl Spatz, Capts. George Brett and Ross Hoyt, and Lt. Harry Johnson. This is basically an A-2 without epaulets or collar point snaps, of what appears to be a highly pliable horsehide. Rank patches like those sewn onto A-1s appear on the shoulders.

Dargue is shown wearing such a jacket as early as April, 1930 (the others are pictured in 1931-‘32), so perhaps it was he who originated the design. But Arnold would have been the one to get them into service with other influential aviators.

The Goldsmith 31-1897 is now thought to have been a jacket worn by Arnold himself (so far, no one else has been seen wearing it). With epaulets and a collar securement in the form of a button tab (like that seen on dress shirts), it could be called the first fully fledged A-2.
 
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