Rust knits B10's - argument over?

[SuinBruin]

Someone I know likes to call them Buzz Rickson fantasy pieces/garments. They may be really neat, etc...just not authentic. In saying that, I have not opinion, or idea for that matter, if period B-10 jackets ever had rust knits. It's not a garment that I've ever had more than a passing interest in...so very little knowledge on my part.

I just know that the Japanese are famous for these sorts of things as nice as the finished product may be. This is a little different and I love BR's deck jackets, but none of their stenciled N-1 deck jackets have ever been stenciled correctly. When you bring this up to Toyo/Buzz, their typically reply is that no one in Japan cares. So, retort do you really have? The Japanese market. where they really make their money. The stenciling issue has bothered me to no end, but you can't fight city call, in this case. A couple of years ago, I went with the non-stenciled "heavy" Buzz N-1 from HPA. It's great (though that Demotex label is not correct for a jacket...it was only seen in the bib overalls)

- Ian

Buzz makes great stuff, but as you point out it's not 100% dead-on accurate. But I've seen people actually argue (even on this forum) that there must have been originals with XYZ features because BR makes a jacket with those features, and BR only makes perfect copies of existing examples. It's utterly backwards, of course, but people will believe what they want to believe.

P.S. Love the P-47 pics.

 

[B-Man2]

While there's always a possibility that rust/berry knit B-10s really existed, you have to ask yourself ;
With all the hundreds of thousands of WWII photos that are in archives, in hundreds of museums, and various databases, ............and with all the museums that maintain USAAF militaria both in the US and Europe ... not one example or photograph found after 75 years. Statistically the odds are .... they probably don't exist. Just my opinion.

 

[johnwayne]

Sorry guys, I'm gonna have to beg to differ as (yes I know it was my post) but the second two images are way too dark, it's a bright day and I suggest mine is more faithful in colour rendition. I know I'm not gonna convince you though!

 

[Smithy]

The big problem with your image JW is that we now know the colours in it are very out of register due to the simple fact that we know that the Belle of Belmont was painted in OD41 with Neutral Grey undersides. If you look at the OD in your image you can see that it's displaying as black or even a very dark navy blue (at least on my screen) which straight away suggests that the photo is not showing correct colours and hues.

I'd suggest that in truth the colours are better represented in the link I posted above or even this:

No trying to shoot you down but just enjoying the discussion and it's such a great photograph.

 

[Cocker]

Moreover, JW, your picture is very saturated in red. Simply look at the pin up on the aircraft, and you'll see that it's waaaaaaay too red. This is throwing the whole colour balance off.

 

[Peter Graham]

It looks like a bog standard B-10 to me. The knits are a slightly different shade of olive from the rest of the jacket but that’s it. As for BR, they would make a B-10 with a luminous pink collar if they thought it would shift units. They make nice stuff, but it’s way over rated and not half accurate enough for the prices they charge.

 

[MikeyB-17]

For the first time in many years, I just fished out my copy of Roger Freeman ‘s ‘Mighty Eighth in colour’, and sho’ ‘nuff, that pic is in there, considerably paler and probably a lot closer to the original than seen here. Even so, it’s still hard to tell from the old Kodachrome image, but I think they’re your bog standard green. I do know what they’re not, and that’s rust, or any other shade of red. It was nice to have a look through the book, and also ‘Ninth Air Force in colour’. In both, pretty much every B-10 has green knits and a dark brown mouton collar.

 

[johnwayne]

Well Smithy I agree your version of the pic looks more faithful to how it should be and perhaps my hunt for a rust knit B10 continues - not that I was actually looking but the pic I found jumped out at me. In '4 colour' printing the general rule is go by flesh tones first and yes your version shows that better (although irrelevant in this case it is fact that the female of the species see colours warmer than us).

 

[Smithy]

They make nice stuff, but it’s way over rated and not half accurate enough for the prices they charge.

What I was interested to learn recently for all the BR are absolute facsimiles of the original jackets stuff that gets spouted, was how the shoulder USAAF/USAF badging on their nylon jackets is just an iron-on modern transfer and not the heat set dye sublimation process (I think that's the correct terminology) as was used on the vintage nylon flight jackets in the 50s, etc.

 

[dmar836]

Yep and BR had a small contract during the war too!

 

[stanier]

For the first time in many years, I just fished out my copy of Roger Freeman ‘s ‘Mighty Eighth in colour’, and sho’ ‘nuff, that pic is in there, considerably paler and probably a lot closer to the original than seen here. Even so, it’s still hard to tell from the old Kodachrome image, but I think they’re your bog standard green. I do know what they’re not, and that’s rust, or any other shade of red. It was nice to have a look through the book, and also ‘Ninth Air Force in colour’. In both, pretty much every B-10 has green knits and a dark brown mouton collar.

Those Roger Freeman books are truly excellent collections of colour images and for anyone who hasn’t seen them I’d thoroughly recommend getting hold of copies to have a very enjoyable browsing session.

To the photo, I think it’s clear that because of the nature of the film, the light available and time that the nose appearing as red is actually blue...sorry for my perverse humour, but joking apart I’m surprised this issue hasn’t been resolved more easily.

Do we have a member in Japan that could contact Buzz Rickson and see what reference they have? Or what happened to Superior Togs? Would their successor’s etc have archives somewhere? Or the AAF archives? Given all the research and detail in something like Gary Eastman’s A-2 book surely it suggests it might be possible to resolve the question.

I think even if a pic were found for us to peruse that clearly showed red knits we’d have those who’d believe the jacket had knits replaced and didn’t leave the factory like that, so whatever we need more of an audit trail to really resolve.

I think it’s been proven beyond doubt that Superior Togs did produce an L-2A in blue with olive knits so they did have form on this point, but then Buzz may have retrofitted that idea to an earlier jacket.

One thing beyond doubt I think though, a B-10 with red knits looks cool!

 

[ButteMT61]

So even if we did find one pic with one jacket with berry knits, what would that mean? I'd think it would take more than one or two to convince folks that this was a thing.
I'd also wager that BR makes fashion aspects to their otherwise really nice jackets. I don't care - I'm not going to not buy a jacket I like based on something that 99.99999999999% of humanity neither knows about or cares about.
Seems that you'd have to have a bunch of these to convince that they were made en mass...or small mass.

What's funny are the guys dismissing GW/DD nylon jackets for added length - to the death!
Good god, most men are way larger than the typical WWII era and later man. Added length is really a faux pas? Give me a break.

 

[Cocker]

On top of that, Aero just posted a short clip on Instagram showing 2 different B-10's in the work! If that is not a good news for you, I don't know what is.

At the moment, they are training their machinists for it, using their olive drill coton for the shell, and they're still trying to source the correct material. They told me the whole range of customization will be available and are looking to add it back to their catalogue, not as a one off, but permanently!

 

[ButteMT61]

^ More options are great! Have to look at those B-10's. Been wanting one, and Aero's lead time is reasonable still.
BTW, I don't see that on the Aero IG or Facebook pages?

 

[Cocker]

^ More options are great! Have to look at those B-10's. Been wanting one, and Aero's lead time is reasonable still.
BTW, I don't see that on the Aero IG or Facebook pages?

They posted a short vid in their story, but it seems it's already gone. I echanged a couple messages with someone from their team, which gave me the above information.

Envoyé de mon SM-G950F en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[Peter Graham]

Those Roger Freeman books are truly excellent collections of colour images and for anyone who hasn’t seen them I’d thoroughly recommend getting hold of copies to have a very enjoyable browsing session.

To the photo, I think it’s clear that because of the nature of the film, the light available and time that the nose appearing as red is actually blue...sorry for my perverse humour, but joking apart I’m surprised this issue hasn’t been resolved more easily.

Do we have a member in Japan that could contact Buzz Rickson and see what reference they have? Or what happened to Superior Togs? Would their successor’s etc have archives somewhere? Or the AAF archives? Given all the research and detail in something like Gary Eastman’s A-2 book surely it suggests it might be possible to resolve the question.

I think even if a pic were found for us to peruse that clearly showed red knits we’d have those who’d believe the jacket had knits replaced and didn’t leave the factory like that, so whatever we need more of an audit trail to really resolve.

I think it’s been proven beyond doubt that Superior Togs did produce an L-2A in blue with olive knits so they did have form on this point, but then Buzz may have retrofitted that idea to an earlier jacket.

One thing beyond doubt I think though, a B-10 with red knits looks cool!

Did Superior Togs even make B-10's or any other jacket in WW2 ? AAF cloth jackets have always been my main jacket interest and I can't recall ever seeing one.

 

[stanier]

Did Superior Togs even make B-10's or any other jacket in WW2 ? AAF cloth jackets have always been my main jacket interest and I can't recall ever seeing one.

Hi Peter, I seem to recall someone (Mr Roughwear I think but I could be wrong) saying they’d handled original Superior Togs B-10’s albeit not with red knits. I’ll see if I can find the thread. It was a couple of years or so ago when we had this chat the last time round and I could be having memory shuffle or complete failure!

 

[stanier]

http://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/threads/best-b-10-repro.9274/page-5

This is what I think I remember. Not handled, but references a single contract in 1944, so probably not a lot of jackets and even less pics perhaps?

 

[dmar836]

At the moment, they are training their machinists for it, using their olive drill coton for the shell,

I tried this but the jacket gets caught in the end mills and makes a mess!

 

[SuinBruin]

I think it’s been proven beyond doubt that Superior Togs did produce an L-2A in blue with olive knits so they did have form on this point, but then Buzz may have retrofitted that idea to an earlier jacket.

Can you point me to the source for this? Much appreciated, thanks.