QUIZ Time again!

Discussion in '**ANNOUNCEMENTS**' started by Smithy, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    OK guys, like last year whilst going through my books I've found that I have four copies of Pierre Clostermann's classic, "The Big Show" so I'm putting one of them up for a prize for the first to answer a question. Now don't get too excited this isn't a signed copy (sorry boys I'm keeping that one for myself) it's a bog standard recent paperback release but this is one of the greatest pilot memoirs ever written and if you haven't read it you should or else give it to that annoying cousin as a chrissy present. I'll send this anywhere in the world for free so it's your chance to get a classic aviation memoir for free!

    Here's the question (and it's not hard),

    Who was the first RAF ace of WWII?
     
  2. Persimmon

    Persimmon Well-Known Member

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  3. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Alan, next...
     
  4. Thomas Koehle

    Thomas Koehle Well-Known Member

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    Braham and Tuck had both 29 confirmed kills ...

    How do you define “ace”?
     
  5. Brent

    Brent Active Member

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    Edgar James ‘Cobber’ Kain
     
  6. Thomas Koehle

    Thomas Koehle Well-Known Member

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    Pattle?

    From which amount of kills on does a pilot count as ace?
     
  7. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    Well done Brent!

    PM me your details and I'll put the book in the post to you :)
     
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  8. Thomas Koehle

    Thomas Koehle Well-Known Member

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    OK!

    Book is gone - Smithy no jokes from which amount of shotdown planes does a pilot count as “ace”?

    Just for my personal interest ...

    Any other RAF or any other air force with such an number of kills after the 2nd WW?

    Saludos!

    Thomas
     
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  9. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    Thomas, Cobber was the first RAF ace both officially but also as regarded within the AASF squadrons. His score is actually generally regarding to be a lot less than what he actually scored.

    I was very lucky to be in correspondence with his sister Judy in the noughties. She was an absolute character just like her brother.
     
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  10. unclegrumpy

    unclegrumpy Well-Known Member

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    That is great question, and I think one that does not have just one answer, but rather an answer that can be different depending on the war, the theatre of operations, who is keeping score, and a number of other factors.

    As an example of an outlier, I knew a WW I pilot who was an "ace". He shot down five German observation balloons and they gave him the DSC for it. I don't fully recall all of his stories now, but I believe that they later...like around WW II...took away his ace status. That happened to others as well, especially after they got a hold of enemy records and were able to reevaluated kill claims after each war. However, his ballon kills were never in dispute, just if shooting down balloons should count or not. Ground versus air kills was another evolving factor, with most of the evolution leading to only counting combat kills in the air towards becoming an ace. Another thing that can muddy the water, is accounting for shared kills. This is a really interesting topic...with lots of potential twists and turns.
     
  11. Brent

    Brent Active Member

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    Thank you kind sir, the information is on it's way.

    Regards,
     
  12. Skip

    Skip Well-Known Member

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    I was out blasting around the countryside this morning so missed the question :rolleyes:

    Good show Tim. Been a while since we had a quiz of sorts, especially one with a prize attached.
     
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  13. johnwayne

    johnwayne Well-Known Member

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    Isn't 5 destroyed and witnessed enemy aircraft the official number that makes an ace?
     
  14. Greg Gale

    Greg Gale Well-Known Member

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    Ace = at least 5 confirmed aerial victories


    By the way, The Big Show is one of my favorite books. I have a cca 1947 edition in French. I love how detailed the description of the missions are.
     
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  15. dmar836

    dmar836 Well-Known Member

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    I would agree on the final definition of “ace” as aerial victories. It’s basically a historical designation as we will likely never see a new ace again. Ground kills were quite a contribution but not the same. I do think WWI balloons should have remained an “aerial kill” as, for the time of the award, a balloon mission was rightfully considered more difficult than an air to air engagement.
    To have taken that away is like us taking away WWII aerial victories just because technology dictates we will never see such engagements again.
    JMO,
    Dave
     
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  16. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    I really should have asked a bit of a tougher question, the quiz didn't even make it to an hour old! The last one I did lasted a day, I'm going to have to get craftier with the next one with you lot.

    Congrats once again to Brent and I'll nip off to the post office tomorrow to send it.
     
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  17. Brettafett

    Brettafett Well-Known Member

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    The Big Show is excellent!
    Reading Goodson's book, its seems at some point the USAF were giving credit to aircraft destroyed on the ground also. Reasoning being, that the more EA destroyed, the less EA to annoy the bombers... Then later, 'Ace' status was reverted back to 5 confirmed 'aerial' victories only.
     
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  18. Smithy

    Smithy Well-Known Member

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    I believe the USAAF did include ground victories - at least for a time Brett. The RAF have never done so, and even victories over flying bombs aren't always included in victory scores (even though they were exceedingly dangerous to down).

    The Big Show is probably my favourite pilot memoir, and it was the first one where I (cliched as it sounds) felt like I was in the cockpit with him. It's a true classic.

    I can remember when it came out in the news in 2006 that he'd passed away that I was genuinely and tremendously sad. I'd never met the chap but his book had given me a taste of something which I could never have experienced.
     
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  19. Brettafett

    Brettafett Well-Known Member

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    Yes, perhaps thats why these bios make for such compelling reading. Gives us a taste of something no one will ever experience in the same way ever again...
    I always understood the RAF to be a bit stricter with claiming victories. I've been watching some very interesting documentaries on Youtube again... Amazing comparing the US, RAF, German, Italian and Japanese pilot's perspectives... Saw a good one n the AVG the other day, clearly saw many 'oversized' M422's...
     
  20. Cocker

    Cocker Active Member

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    The Great Show is one of my favourite too. I have both original edition and the 2000 version with additional content. IT's a very well written book, and indeed it makes you feel like you're up there with him.

    Clostermann was, to say the least, a controvoersial character. A good deal of the stories written in his book never happened, or happened to other pilots. The example that's popping to my mind are the Noball mission where they escort Hurri-bombers, which apparently never happened (but was representative of other missions). He was also René Mouchotte's wingman the day he was killed, and lots of pilots from the 341 deemed him responsible of his death as he left his leader to follow a german plane.
     

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