A newbie's A2

[Ole]

Dover, if you apply the pecards then take again the same pictures and we will see if any difference.

 

[blackrat2]

I have used Pecards and am sure from memory and other before and after shots on previous threads that it will look darker
Just apply it sparingly seems to be the best approach if you decide to treat it
Very nice jacket btw

 

[Dover]

The what to put on a 75+ year old jacket like this one always sparks a spirited debate. One option that has not been discussed is the "do nothing" option. Condition and damage comes into play, but if the jacket is sound and doing well after that long, why bother it? One thing to consider, is most museums use very little or nothing if the goal is simply conservation.

Wearing versus collecting is another consideration...with wearing likely being a stronger reason to do something, because the leather will need more to face the elements and stand up to use again. But with that "more" there are always risks.

I have used both Pecards and vaseline with good results...but occasionally some bad...mostly from exposing unseen issues and weaknesses in the leather like dry rot. I also know from looking at a lot of Civil War and other vintage leather goods over the years that were "treated", that over time the treatments can create their own problems too...sometimes catastrophic ones...and that can be from the use of Pecards or vaseline...plus all the other remedies favored at one time or the other in the past. I say this from both observation and experience...meaning I have had my own things...some really good and expensive things...that I wanted to "help" turn to goo or get substantially worse right in front of my eyes.

Pecards is a product I use, and like a lot, but I really only use it on reproductions or more modern "vintage" pieces. I tend to take the "do nothing" option on the older vintage items, especially the ones that are more collectibles rather than something to wear. Part of the issue is we don't really know what father time will do, and I think it is a bit of a roll of the dice if 10, 20, 50, or 100 years from now we will have been brilliant or idiots...and that cuts with either choice...slathering something on or doing nothing.

Thanks unclegrumpy for presenting a balanced argument on the merits of using a leather treatment on my jacket. The information in this thread is exactly why I joined this forum. The information here is amazing.
I am a collector first and a wearer second. While I have worn this jacket, a size 40 is a bit too small for me and as such the jacket will most probably remain a display item.
That being said I will probably take the "less is more" approach and leave the jacket as it is for the present. In the future should I decide to treat the jacket with Pecard's or something similar
I will take some before and after pictures to share with the forum. Thanks to all.

 

[unclegrumpy]

Dover...this might be the fellow that owned your jacket....Captain Roscoe H. Johnson, Jr....he is mentioned as a "first pilot in the 49th Squadron" in 1943 on Page 38 of this link:

http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/TSWF/Second Was First 04 - Chapter 04 - Operations- April June 1943.pdf

Also found the clipping with him, and a picture of his grave marker below. I think this is likely your guy, and the lack the "Jr" on the name tag does not bother me...it is actually very common for that to be dropped. Would be curious to know if there is a service number or anything else in the jacket that would be an additional clue. Johnson is a really common name and that can make things difficult to pin down. However, the link is from the 2nd Bomb Group's Unit History, and that narrows things a lot. There is also a "Russell H Johnson" listed, but he was in a different squadron in the Group.

I bet with more research, you could find out more about Roscoe....maybe even the missions he flew. You have a neat jacket, with a great patch, which I hope can be confirmed to this early war pilot.

 

[Jonesy86]

I have been told by an expert in re-building 50 to 75 year old jackets that the stitching is a time bomb. I think they used cotton thread, as do many of the expert repro geniuses today in order to be true to the original production. From what I was taught, the thread disintegrates over time. Maybe the products like Pecards further that process. I don't know. I am certainly not at the level of buying jackets as a collector, and frame them to hang on the wall as a museum piece. Though I would visit that museum if it existed. I already have too many jackets to wear consistently, though I am starting to cull the herd.
However, I think that most of the stuff around these days is tough as nails. They were built to be used, and maybe abused, aka, building Patina. I have some jackets that i think that you could run over with a tractor that would only come out looking more "vintage". But I certainly could be wrong.
Love the discourse. And a disclaimer. I know nothing.
Peace.

 

[Jonesy86]

Dover...this might be the fellow that owned your jacket....Captain Roscoe H. Johnson, Jr....he is mentioned as a "first pilot in the 49th Squadron" in 1943 on Page 38 of this link:

http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/TSWF/Second Was First 04 - Chapter 04 - Operations- April June 1943.pdf

Also found the clipping with him, and a picture of his grave marker below. I think this is likely your guy, and the lack the "Jr" on the name tag does not bother me...it is actually very common for that to be dropped. Would be curious to know if there is service number or anything else in the jacket that would be an additional clue. Johnson is a really common name and that can make things difficult to pin down. However, the link is from the 2nd Bomb Group's Unit History, and that narrows things a lot. There is also a "Russell H Johnson" listed, but he was in a different squadron in the Group.

I bet with more research, you could find out more about Roscoe....maybe even the missions he flew. You have a neat jacket, with a great patch, which I hope can be confirmed to this early war pilot.

Absolutely amazing that you traced the jacket to the guy who went to war wearing it!! And he survived, to live to a ripe old age. Good on him. If that jacket could only talk, it would have some stories to tell. My father was in the Navy serving on an Amphibious Cargo Assault ship at what has been called D-day at Iwo Jima when he was 17 years old. Could never get him to talk about his war times. I have been trying to piece together the history. Found a bunch of Pics, handed down through many family members.
Man what a time!
My respect and appreciation to the memory of Col. Roscoe H Johnson Jr, and his family.
Peace.

 

[Ole]

I have used Pecards and am sure from memory and other before and after shots on previous threads that it will look darker

there you go,
darker = different,
different = ruined (in my book)

I also heard that pecards would accelerate the corrosion of the cotton thread, which is already weak enough after 70+ years etc

 

[Ken at Aero Leather]

Fabulous A-2, don't get too hung up on treating the leather and personally I wouldn't worry too much about the stitching, if it's going to "let go" it won't happen all at once, a stitch or two here and there will give plenty warning.
As to leather treatment, I've never been a big fan of using any other than in an emergency, totally dried out and cracked leather.
The one product we used more than once at The Thrift Shop was Probert's Neats Foot Oil, we found it vastly superior to all other products. No change to appearance whatsoever 24 hours after use
This does seem to be long out of production but well worth keeping a look out for in old shoe shops etc.
No other brand's Neats Foot Oil seemed to have the same qualities as Proberts

 

[Jonesy86]

Yeah, I have heard the same about true Vintage jackets and cotton thread. If your are not going to wear it, probably best to leave it be. I am not worried about the cotton thread in the true historical repros, made to the exact specifications of the originals. I am not going to be around in 50 years. I look for Vintage stuff from the 60s, or 70s, not only because that was my time, but I wear the stuff, and don't worry about it. I just wear it. Probably leave it to my son in law, or grand children it that happens soon. There are a few folks that can re-sew the really old stuff. If I get into the real thing, that is what I would do. It is basically taking the whole jacket apart, and putting it back together so that it can be worn.
Peace.
PS
I am again certainly not an expert, or authority on this stuff, but I do study ;

 

[Roughwear]

there you go,
darker = different,
different = ruined (in my book)

I also heard that pecards would accelerate the corrosion of the cotton thread, which is already weak enough after 70+ years etc

So I have a new definition of ruined! Different! Hahaha!

There is no objective evidence Pecards accelerates the corrosion of cotton thread. Often it is weak and needs to be replaced.These jackets were not intended to last for 75 years and it is remarkable how well many they have.

Darker is actually fine as the colour would be closer how it originally appeared when made, rather than the faded colour.

 

[unclegrumpy]

My father was in the Navy serving on an Amphibious Cargo Assault ship at what has been called D-day at Iwo Jima when he was 17 years old. Could never get him to talk about his war times. I have been trying to piece together the history. Found a bunch of Pics, handed down through many family members.

Jonesy, unlike Dover's A2 where we have to work backwards to find, and hopefully then pin down the original owner, and still really need one more solid clue to nail it, finding something on your father would be easy. Easy because you know who you are looking for, and unlike most (about 90%) of the Army and AAF service files that were burned in the 1973 fire in the National Archives in St Louis, the Navy ones survived. That means you could write for your father's. It will have a lot of the information you may be missing...basically a timeline of where he was and what he did, though presented as pieces of separate information in his file rather than as a completed narrative. Sometimes you do get lucky and there is something that is in story form...a citation, commendation, or letter in a file, but I would not count on that.

It costs about $70 to get a file like this. There are several ways to do it...PM me if you are interested. If others are, I can send you that information as well, or post it in the thread, though it is drifting off topic. What is pertinent, is Johnson's WW II service file was probably burned...basically only bits of the ends of the alphabet survived...so that is not likely to be of much help to Dover. There is a chance there is something on Johnson, but it would likely be from the end of his career not the early part...there are a couple of other factors in play if this the correct Johnson...with likely 25 or 30 years of service, but none of those are helpful or worth throwing $70 at....unless you are curious about the type of desk he was maybe flying in the 1960's.

 

[Ole]

Roughwear,
Do I sense some snobbiness in your post, or is it just me?
Just because you have 9,804 posts in this forum and I have 10, you think you know better? I have in excess of a million in other forums, OK?
How can you talk about objective evidence? Have you researched the subject?

If you do, you will find many reports from people who have tried Pecards and other products and ruined their stuff. Vaseline also. And I quote "It's wise you will not because vaseline shrinks old leather and turns it into a black mass which means your leather is totally ruined."

Sourced from here: https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=31398

and I am sure if you just google it I am sure you will find many more.

And yes, different = ruined. Everything different than its original as found condition equals ruined. That's why you don't replace your moth eaten knits with repros, that's why you don't replace the frayed spec tag with a repro tag, because you will ruin it. If you do, it will be different than what it was when in its original form, hence ruined. And will lose its resale value. Any objections?

Often it is weak and needs to be replaced.These jackets were not intended to last for 75 years and it is remarkable how well many they have.

Really? let's see how the stitching is going to be replaced when it will be eroded by Pecards. And yes, they survived 75+ years because their owners did not pecard them, like this one.

Darker is actually fine as the colour would be closer how it originally appeared when made, rather than the faded colour.

No, darker isn't fine man and you don't know how it originally appeared when made because you were not there. The only thing you will manage to do it you darken it is that the next owner (if any) is going to know that you messed with it.

You will find interesting stories and horror about Pecards, including opinion from the National Park Service museum here:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/24966-preserving-leather/

Now if you used Pecards on your stuff and nothing happened (so far) then consider yourself lucky, but please stop recommending it to others. If the guy uses it and his jacket gets destroyed this way or the other, then what are you going to say to him? "Sorry, I didn't know" ?

 

[Ole]

quite interesting what the museum rep says isn't it?

"Dressings are just
that, dressings, and research has shown they do not actually restore the
leather in any way."

and

"...but in actuality
are only making things worse as the petroleum will actually contribute to
the disintegration of the fibrous tissues."

so Pecards is actually accelerating the decay.

 

[Roughwear]

Thank you for your observations. I have looked at your link provided. The arguments against Pecards are not backed up by rock solid scientific evidence, just people's opinions. I have had no problem using it sparingly for many years and will continue to do so.

 

[Ole]

The people base their opinions on their experiences. Pecards may or may not have adverse effects on your leather, depending on what type of leather it is, how it was tanned etc. and a hundred more unknown factors to you. That's why I said it is risky. The fact that nothing happened to you does not constitute rock solid evidence that it is safe to use it. One person is not big enough sample to make any statistical conclusions.

Also, the museum tech, who is assigned with preserving some items of value mentioned that there was "research", can you deny it?

Only the fact that it makes it darker, is enough for me.
By the way, you didn't tell us? Do you replace your rotten knits and tags with new?

 

[Persimmon]

Ole.
If you keep this rate of posts up you will surpass Andrews figure before you know it.
You could FLJ’s first ever million poster.

“Just because you have 9,804 posts in this forum and I have 10, you think you know better? I have in excess of a million inother forums”

 

[Ole]

hahaha

 

[unclegrumpy]

You will find interesting stories and horror about Pecards, including opinion from the National Park Service museum here:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/24966-preserving-leather/

That is great link. The main writer is an extremely well respected and knowledgeable collector & dealer, who occasionally makes appearances on the American version of the Antiques Road Show...he is a very nice guy too.

That link brought up something to use that I thought about including in previous post, but I had already gone on long enough. That is the use of lanoline. What they are referring to is the pharmaceutical grade of pure lanoline that one would purchase at a drug store. That has nothing in it but what came from the sheep, and is supposedly edible. Its use on collectables became popular in the 1970's through maybe 1980's, but before that it was long used to treat skin aliments...and still is.

The problem with it is it does not have much viscosity, and tends to sit on the top of the leather rather than soak in. That is why most products for leather have petroleum based additives in them...additives that help them soak in and then for the most part evaporate. That is one reason things often return to a more or less normal color after a few days...because depending on the product, it has not always actually soaked in, but instead a component has escaped into the air.

Even in small doses, lanoline can leave a greasy residue that in some instances never goes away. I have seen entire collections coated in the stuff...not thinking leather jackets, though I have seen a few with it applied, but old leather helmets, leather field equipment, and anything else that was leather. I own I few things that I know got their "treatments" forty or fifty years ago, because I inherited them from an old friend who was sold on it...I watched him use it countless times...and some of it still remains today...bubbling back up or still just stuck to the surface...for me to remember him (good), the dose of lanoline (bad).

I am was not surprised to read that museums still use lanoline. However, I bet it is only in specific targeted instances, and I suspect often applied from the end of a Q-Tip. Not something you need to run out and buy, and not something that would probably make sense to put on a jacket you might want to wear...though it does add some degree of waterproofing, so if you were going out in the field in the mist or rain it would help, but don't sit on the wife's furniture when you get home.

 

[Dover]

Dover...this might be the fellow that owned your jacket....Captain Roscoe H. Johnson, Jr....he is mentioned as a "first pilot in the 49th Squadron" in 1943 on Page 38 of this link:

http://www.2ndbombgroup.org/TSWF/Second Was First 04 - Chapter 04 - Operations- April June 1943.pdf

Also found the clipping with him, and a picture of his grave marker below. I think this is likely your guy, and the lack the "Jr" on the name tag does not bother me...it is actually very common for that to be dropped. Would be curious to know if there is a service number or anything else in the jacket that would be an additional clue. Johnson is a really common name and that can make things difficult to pin down. However, the link is from the 2nd Bomb Group's Unit History, and that narrows things a lot. There is also a "Russell H Johnson" listed, but he was in a different squadron in the Group.

I bet with more research, you could find out more about Roscoe....maybe even the missions he flew. You have a neat jacket, with a great patch, which I hope can be confirmed to this early war pilot.

unclegrumpy thanks so much for taking time to look into the history of my jacket. I think you are spot on correct about the original owner.
I did some quick research into the 49th bombardment group and came across a pilot named Roscoe H. Johnson. (didn't know about the Jr)
I haven't had the time to pursue his story and yet here I am looking at his picture! A tip of the hat to you sir.

After reading your post I immediately took another look at the jacket try to find any info. relating to the original owner. Unfortunately a thorough
check of the jacket didn't reveal anything new. I contacted the ebay seller to see if he had any knowledge of the jacket's history and came up empty.
I will continue to research Roscoe H. Johnson Jr and share any new information I find.

Many thanks unclegrumpy and all the others who shared their thoughts on this thread.

 

[Dover]

Yo
From one newbie to another. Holy sh#t. That looks great. I am weird in that I don't usually like a jacket with the squadron patches. I didn't earn them. My father served on, an attack amphibious ship on "D-day" Iwo Jima. Just found a few pics in a box. I got a flag, and a letter from the President GHWBush and I can kinda get into the vibe. Got any fit pics?

Thanks for the kind remarks Jonesy86. I appreciate the sense of history that surround these jackets. A direct link to the men and women who helped save the world 75+ years ago.
By the way my father also was at Iwo Jima in 1945. He serviced P-51's and P-47's as a ground crewman in the USAAF. Cheers!