Buttoned Pocket Flaps A-2 Jackets

Yes, we can’t confirm a Goldsmith Sons Co. 31-1897 jacket as there are no known survivors. With that said, a possible candidate is the jacket Hap Arnold is wearing next to Brig. Gen Westover in the same photograph of post #54 (and not shown in post #300). Hap's jacket has three A-2 contract details that have not been seen on any other A-2 contract: (1) a very wide collar stand, (2) double stitching on the pockets, and (3) an A-1 style collar loop. The epaulets over the shoulder seam is unusual and not seen again until the 1941 Ostermann Co. contract.

A run of twenty-five jackets is small, but they may have needed a rush order to present the new jacket at a reveal (Hey! Hap is coming to Wright-Patt in a few weeks. Here’s a purchase order we just wrote. Drive an hour to Cincy and get some right now … or something like that ...)

Arnold's jacket in the pic with the 5 GHQ Provisional officers is the same one he wears in the pic with Westover and Howard at the Biltmore Hotel. Both were taken in 1933; both show the putative Goldsmith with collar tab, double stitched pocket and - only visible in the GHQ pic - some kind of anchor for the zipper. Looks to me to be a small rivet.

MeachamLake said:

Do you know what date that photo was taken? Where is it originally from?

If we can get the date then it will help enourmously...

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Pic found by me, dated by San Diego History Center.
Rockwell Field, Coronado, Calif., May 7, 1932.

(This thread is already getting too big and involved to keep track of...)

Also - from here it doesn't look like Spaatz's jacket has the A1 style button and loop seen on Hap's jacket?

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It doesn't. Ross Hoyt's probably doesn't either. Both collars look very flexible, even flimsy, as they'd look if they lacked securements of any kind and - I feel - as if they were made of capeskin or something similar in weight and thickness to A-1 skins. (Maybe the calfskin mentioned in the A-1 service test document!)

We just talk about what MIGHT be the correct zip 1st, then we talk about sourcing the best alternatives
Alternatively, MAYBE there are just 25 [or more] of those early 30's Talon zip or mid 30's Talon zip available in the whole world now [or very limited] that makers can just make 25 out of real Talon that they can charge a premium px over it ? - remind that most of these early 30's Talon was found in pouches, bags, spat, trousers, very few are found used in jackets - long enough.
Back to step 1: what was the zipper used in Goldsmith jkt #5 or #7?

as exciting as this all is, a number of the original pictures show jackets that look pretty unflattering, kind of an ugly cut/fit. Hoping for a more flattering version. Sometimes, might not be best to emulate EVER nuance???????

#305, on thw contrary, I would like very much these "rarer" A2 be sticked to the original cut, short & box cut , long sleeves/ unflattering - as much authentic as possible.

Consider it a kind of anti-fit perhaps, like vintage Levi's. These guys weren't looking to show off their fit physiques - they had service blouses and Sam Brownes to do that. They were looking to move unrestricted in and around planes.

There is another photo of Arnold wearing the Goldsmith;



The gentleman with Arnold is Billy Mitchell so it should be possible to date the photo.

There are a couple of photo's which could be of Werber 32-6225;



The pale cuffs and lay of eppaulettes on two of these jackets hint at a Werber. The sleeves look to have in-set seams.

There is also this enlargement from circa July 1933, but it is too small to see details;

As an exercise in achieving an accurate replica (as much as one can from 2-d images, rather than a 3-d artefact), I agree it’s a fascinating research topic, but if you’re planning to invest in sourcing parts to make a run? I wouldn’t go overboard.

As John J says, it’s a curiosity for a small number of enthusiasts, but not for a wider group. Look back over threads, we had the same excitement over the SAT, despite the blousy fit of the torso. Loads of members coveted one as the ‘first’ A-2; RMcC and GW offer/offered them - how many were made/sold/worn? I saw more sold on as a result of the unflattering shape than have been kept/worn regularly.

I can think of many occasions when the first iteration is the cleanest (XK120 - XK150, Spitfire Mk1 - MkXXIV), but the later versions are usually the result of technological improvements. These jacket designs have a sparseness and more minimalist line, which is attractive (particularly in the pattern without epaulettes IMHO), but the cut of the pattern is also a dog in places - if you received a collar like that on a later ELC or GW, you’d consider chasing a rebuild...

Unflattering cut = small jacket sales (however enthusiastic the buyer) as when worn most of the comments received will be equally unflattering, rather than “Wow, cool jacket - is that an example of the first A-2, a transitional pattern showing it’s A-1 roots?”

2BM2K said:

View attachment 6779

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And that one is the clincher. Arnold looks sharp and well dressed in his more refined A-2, whereas he looks like a sack of spuds (potatoes) in his Goldsmith...

#109
Dr I disagree on that. I think Levis 501 is in a similar situation. For example, 201 & 33501 is very wide in the thighs & hem - like 1st pattern USN dungarees in cut. If it weren't wide in thighs & hem, they weren't 201 & 33501. If one wants a slimmer cut 501, goes for 47501 or 66501 or 15501.
2 "rules" comes to my mind
- in collecting stuff, the earlier is always rarer & better
- Nothing beats the original
I don't give a shit to others about how I dress BECAUSE I know better than them. For those who know will know what I am wearing, for those who don't know, there is no need to explain, cos they will never know.
Hypothetical situation: Hey you look really sloppy in your original 201 jeans, you are 5'7", the jeans is creased & well-worn with lots of wear, looks like someone can hide in your pants, now look at me - a brand new 47501 RMC replica from Japan, redline - really good fabric and good fit.
Is it what vintage wear are all about ?

We'll agree to differ (I'm not talking about wearing vintage gear in general, which I wear all the time, regardless of rules, etc., etc.), but a rough, prototype design of a jacket that was subsequently modified pretty quickly in subsequent iterations after a run of 25 jackets, or fewer.

Earlier is not always better (it's subjective and the point I made was form versus function concerning vintage cars in which I have long had an interest and aero engineering which is part of my job - I had MkII Jaguars for many years and I'd take a series I E Type over the series III every time for looks, but not for the pitiful headlamp range, caused by internal reflection from the perspex fairings), it's a view, borne out in many case as I said, but it's subjective.

If you know that you're right then why are you even responding to me, as I'm wrong...?

Ah.............I've had several MkIIs and a 1961 Flat floor E Type so I'd agree 100%, the V12 was one of the biggest crimes against design of all time.
The A-2 falls in the the rarer AC Cobra category, they just got better and better!

Dr you are absolutely not wrong - just different perspective.
I confess I am the minority of the minority. I enjoy the handicap in the using/ wearing of very old things which are most of the time not fit [in modern standard] & clumsy to use. I like the material, the design, the story and their handicap; I regard this as "nobleness".

Ken at Aero Leather said:

Ah.............I've had several MkIIs and a 1961 Flat floor E Type so I'd agree 100%, the V12 was one of the biggest crimes against design of all time.
The A-2 falls in the the rarer AC Cobra category, they just got better and better!

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Couldn't agree more, Ken. I saw your post on the Coombs Mk II. I was too young to have owned one in the '60s, but had a 1963 3.8 Coombs replica in BRG with suede green interior, high lift L7 cams, straight through exhaust, a raft of other Coombs mods (and uprated brakes, rack and pinion, etc.), Derrington wheel - beautiful but big and flexible - and a louvred bonnet - however rarely they fitted it using louvres cut out from metal cabinets). I'd previously had a 3.4 with the later gearbox which was much more refined.
Both real head turners, but sold them on as they're impractical to use on anything other than high days and holidays now with the cost of fuel.

dittto, original a-2s

Geeboo said:

Dr you are absolutely not wrong - just different perspective.
I confess I am the minority of the minority. I enjoy the handicap in the using/ wearing of very old things which are most of the time not fit [in modern standard] & clumsy to use. I like the material, the design, the story and their handicap; I regard this as "nobleness".

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I don't disagree, I practically always wear trousers with a high waist and button fly, often wear stud collars for formal occasions, bow ties, etc., traditional high armhole patterns, etc.
The point that I was making about the pattern of the Goldsmith is that, in my subjective view, it isn't flattering - not noble, just ill formed, it was tidied up (a little) with the SAT, and much improved by the time the Werber came along.

Is that U who currently move over to the 10's-20's worker style ?

Yes, I've been wearing vintage style for years in fabric - particularly Old Town these days, but I've been selling on my later leather jackets and buying a smaller number of older styled patterns from Freewheelers.

In fact I called in to the Danny Baker radio show a few Saturdays ago to recount a story of how I picked up a morning suit in an antique shop, in the 1980s, that I then found out belonged to the multi-millionaire, Otto H Kahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Hermann_Kahn. I wore it for years to weddings and for graduation ceremonies until I outgrew it. Later sold it on at a profit to the estate in Oheka Castle, where it hangs in a case on the wall.

"The sack of potatoes look" was pretty common for the A-2 and seems to continue on into WWII. Check out the entire back row in this photo. Pretty dead on with the fit of Hap's Goldsmith. Even Hap in this photo is wearing a different maker's A-2 but the fit is the same as his Goldsmith, except even bigger in the arms and body. I believe this jacket is even sloppier looking than his Goldsmith was.


Looks like Hap's Goldsmith is a good fit up top. In fact I bet if you took an inch or two off the length, it wouldn't bunch up so much on the bottom and would look a lot better. Could be that the body was designed a little long but then again, it matches the fit of a lot of A-2's you see in photos. Like the photo above.

Not a bad fit on his GS, except for the waist. Looks to be riding up too. If it was pulled down it would not look as bad.

Another point that has not been raised. Look at the throat latch. It is BLACKENED. Have not seen that before. In fact where can I get a blackened throat latches? May have to make my own.....


Regards,
Jay